Listener Questions: Fat Adaptation and Training Acronym Overload

Paul Warloski (00:27)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday endurance athletes. We have a two-part episode today. We're going to answer a listener question about nutrition and then get into the alphabet soup discussion in our training programs. So after our recent nutrition episodes, my friend Dan

emailed me a list of questions and I wanted to bring them up because I could only answer so far.

for them. So how does one start the adaptation to become more fat adapted versus carb adapted and what kind of diet changes? I sent them a link to the green list from the Real Meal Revolution and Dr. Noakes. But what else should someone understand about the dietary changes and switching to a low carb high fat diet?

Paul Laursen (01:19)

I guess I'll just start with a question. How does one adapt or move to being more fat adapted versus carb adapted? And I think, first of all, just so everyone's aware, what we're looking at is we're kind of going back to the metabolic testing that you might do in the laboratory and...

Paul Warloski (01:26)

Okay.

Paul Laursen (01:43)

someone might, if you're wearing that VOT Max kind of equipment, you're measuring oxygen and CO2 at the end of the day, and we get, we do calculations and we can determine how much fat you're burning versus how much carbohydrates you're burning. So we can actually objectively get info on that. And it's pretty well established that you want to be burning more fat than carbohydrate at low exercise intensities because

that's indicative of being lower stressed and sparing all of your carbohydrate for later. So two ways that you can do that. One, forget about your diet and just train more. So we know that works, right? Like you, Endurance athletes, the more they train, they, the better fat adapted they get, irrespective of what they eat. And, but you can...

Pull the extra lever, not have to train as much, and probably be healthier if you shift your diet. So just to start there and give some context for the listener. So yeah, where do you start? Start anywhere you can. And a great place to start is, as you just said, Paul, with the green list from Dr. Noakes' Real Meal Revolution. And really, you're just working on getting, you know,

processed food out of your life and having more complex carbohydrates, you're getting good quality fat, healthy fats in your diet and healthy proteins as well. That includes even processed meat isn't great either. So it's like you're trying to get just how God or whoever planned it, just take it from Mother Earth.

in terms of

meat, in terms of fruits and vegetables.

you want to probably work towards the lower carb vegetables to start. And those would be things like cruciferous vegetables, things like broccoli, cauliflower, kale.

And there's a big whole list there and

Dom de Gastino, who's an expert in the whole low carb area,

describes these cruciferous vegetables as just excellent fat transporters. Like they almost soak up and absorb fat into your diet. So they're excellent. Like if you have like free range bacon, say for example, you could have that and cook that dish into those cruciferous vegetables. And then they just absorbs in it quite nicely.

And it's an extremely satiating kind of meal that's providing you with the complex carbohydrates that you want, all the sulfur products that you want that are important for something called the glycoccylics of the cardiovascular system. And then they, you know, gives you all the proteins and the good fats that you want as well. So.

I mean, start wherever you can, Paul, is... But usually it's a process of getting into the cupboards and saying, hmm, how much of this is from the middle aisles versus how much of this is from the outer aisles? And that's the perfect place to start. And then you just keep working up to that as you go. And use the lists as a good guide.

Marjaana Rakai (05:12)

every day I'm just like chuckling myself because, you know, eating healthier is so much quicker too. Like you just throw some lettuce on the plate. You cook the meat or salmon. Like I love my salmon coming from the Nordic countries. So I just throw the salmon in the oven with some garlic, olive oil, and maybe asparagus or something. And that's my meal. Like how easy and fast is that?

Paul Laursen (05:41)

And talk to us, Marjaana about your last ride, if you could, before Ironman Texas. And just talk us through what you experienced and let's just give some more context, remembering that you've gone through a process of about six months or so of changing to this diet that we're talking about. And

yeah, you know, basically, tell us about that ride, Marjaana.

Marjaana Rakai (06:08)

Yeah. So I had six hour ride in my schedule, was it last week? And, uh, off my memory, I think I ate scrambled eggs before the ride with my morning coffee. And, um, it was a bit interesting one because I wasn't sure how much to carry with me and how much I was going to actually take in. I was pretty hot that day. So I ended up

eating beef jerky first. I actually enjoyed eating that because it was salty. So maybe that was a point getting that salt in also because it was hot and I was sweaty. Then I had almonds and Brazil nuts. And then I had some Lara bars and I had to force myself to eat the first bar at

hour three, note to myself that I did not enjoy those type of Lara bars. Then at hour four, I had another Lara bar. Then I had a package of baby, baby food, like some pureed baby food. I think it was a pear and apple. So that was like nice carb hit there about 25 grams.

And that was pretty much it for the whole six hours. So what I calculated, it was like 20 grams of carbs per hour.

pretty low. How did you feel? I felt amazing. The first four hours was kind of a push. I struggled a little bit, but then after the four hours, I had some race pace efforts after three hours. So I did two efforts the fourth hour, and they didn't feel super hot. But then the last two efforts

Paul Laursen (07:49)

Sounds pretty low. How did you feel?

Marjaana Rakai (08:16)

from hour four to five, they started feeling really good. And then the last hour, which I originally thought that the last hour from five to six hours was gonna be a struggle. I felt super good. So I kept pushing the bar. It was amazing,

Paul Laursen (08:32)

yeah, and this is something that typically, eventually athletes get to when they continue to push through and reach this level of fat adaptation as they start feeling better and stronger the longer they go on. And I'm not sure exactly what happens. I don't think we have the research to tell us, but if we're guessing, it's likely that the liver starts cranking out.

stuff that it needs, right? Like the glucose that it needs, the ketones that it needs, the lactate that it needs. This is what the liver does for us. It's just our metabolic powerhouse. But it takes a big change and this doesn't happen overnight. So how long did your total adaptation process take you, Marjaana? When did you start

Marjaana Rakai (09:19)

What is the process

the first of October last year.

I'd say there's an adaptation period and your brain is kind of fighting against what you're doing. It is ridiculous. Yeah, and especially in the beginning when you're doing those long rides and you don't...

Paul Laursen (09:36)

Yeah, and you think, look, this is ridiculous. What am I doing? It's never gonna happen, right?

Marjaana Rakai (09:42)

feel elevated, you just feel like, ah, it kind of feels like you have a handbrake on.

But if you keep pushing, you keep trying, eventually that handbrake is going to come off and the power is just incredible. It goes against anything like what you've learned before. Like the longer the ride, the more tired you should feel, but you just, something switches halfway through, like, oh, after four hours.

And you just feel, I can share the power files too. Um, if you're skeptical, because you can see clear clearly that I was pushing more power at the end of the ride than in the first three hours of the ride. And it was hot. So I had to stop, um, for a water break. Thankfully we have fountains here in the area. So I was able to get some water, but pour on my head because it was getting

Paul Warloski (10:35)

Wow.

Paul Laursen (10:36)

So Marjaana, back to Paul's question with his friend Dan, like what kind of advice could you, would you give him just starting

Marjaana Rakai (10:45)

like on nutrition or just training on mental side.

Paul Laursen (10:49)

Kind of both, like the big package and stuff. So what are your reflections, what you know now versus when you know then, and put yourself in his shoes because you were in his shoes.

Marjaana Rakai (10:57)

Mm-hmm. I, um, I was curious because I, like, I had a decent training background and the long run stuff just didn't get any easier. And I was expecting that. So I finally like, okay, I'm going to try this. I committed fully and went with the real meal revolution and of course, um, prof's advice, but I think the biggest challenge was the mental side, like just.

Paul Warloski (11:00)

All right.

Marjaana Rakai (11:27)

keep trying and commit not just for a couple of weeks, but in the longterm. And you will eventually start seeing changes. Like for me, the body composition change came pretty quickly. And then the performance on longer rides came kind of on and off in the beginning, but now it's almost expected like long ride runs and rides.

I know that if I can push through the first few hours, it's gonna happen. Like it just feels so amazing, elevated, so much energy. So the handbrake comes off at some point. Nutrition-wise, like I've never eaten healthier and it's really quickly the prep meals because you know, you don't have to, first of all, go into the middle aisles. You just...

buy some fresh stuff or if you have a garden, you can just pick from your garden. And yeah, choose good quality meats and fish. And yeah, it's so fast.

So I guess keeping it simple, that would be my advice. Keep it simple and trust the process and keep going.

Paul Warloski (12:39)

Thank you.

One of the questions Dan asked was there, if there's a minimum amount of carbohydrate that we should be having in a day just for health reasons.

Paul Laursen (13:00)

That's a great question and it's a common concern. And the answer, Paul, is, you know, looking at the science and evolution, is you can have zero if you need to, because you have, again, the liver that we spoke of. The job of the liver is to give your body...

everything that it needs. It's the process of gluconeogenesis. Remember glucose, neo, new, genesis, make. So that's its job is to make all of the sugar that you need or other molecules. And again remember, so you can get away with having zero. Of course you don't need to have zero and it's very hard to get to get zero. You almost have to have like a lard

plus meat kind of diet, but just kind of know that it's not something you need to pay attention to. And like, yeah, it's really hard to get under, even under a hundred grams in your day is like you really kind of gotta be pretty focused on doing that. And I don't think you really need to focus on it much, maybe a little bit in the beginning. It's good to give your...

Marjaana Rakai (13:54)

just kind of know that it's not something you need to pay attention to. And like, yeah, it's really hard to get under, even under 100 grams in your thing. It's like you really kind of got to be pretty focused on doing that. And I don't think you really need to focus on it much. Maybe a little bit in the beginning. It's good to get your...

Paul Laursen (14:22)

Give your body like that cold turkey cleanse of sugar and see if you can kind of get to the quite low levels. But eventually you get so metabolically flexible that it really doesn't matter so much what you consume. And you can have lots more complex carbohydrate sources later on as you build that resiliency. And because you...

Yeah, you just, it appears that in most individuals, you don't have these big long spiky periods of your glucose. You just, your body handles it all so much better. And I only know that from my own experimentation, wearing continuous glucose monitors and looking at my own response. That's where that kind of comes from. So I'm giving you, a lot of this stuff is, you're not gonna find in a scientific paper. I don't, we're pioneering a lot of this sort of stuff.

Marjaana Rakai (14:51)

it appears that in most individuals you don't have these big long spiky periods of other glucose your body handles it all so much better and I only know that from my own experimentation wearing continuous glucose monitors and working my own response, that's where that kind of comes from so I'm giving you, a lot of this stuff is you're not going to find in a scientific paper we're pioneering a lot of this sort of stuff

Paul Laursen (15:20)

But yeah, there's no, to answer your question, Paul, there's no minimal and pretty hard to get lower than a hundred anyways. 50 is often recommended for ketosis to start the process and really get your body, get your liver making ketones, get your body accepting ketones, your brain, your, and you need long periods of time. I have a friend that's trying to do this right now and he's really challenged.

Marjaana Rakai (15:21)

There's no chance you're questionable, there's no minimal. And pretty hard to get lower than 100 anyways. 50 is often recommended for ketosis to start the process where they get your liver making ketones, get your body accepting ketones, your brain. And you need long periods of time. I have a friend that's trying to do this right now. And he's really challenged in his context

Paul Laursen (15:49)

Um, in his context, because mostly because of his, his family and his, you know, the meals that he eats with his family are, um, very high carb based. Right. And that's food is a very social, um, it's a social factor. We eat and break bread together. Right. Um, not too much bread, hopefully, but yeah. And, and then like, he can only really, uh, you know, do these periods of, of low carb.

Marjaana Rakai (15:51)

mostly because of his family and his, you know, the meals that he eats with his family are very high carb based, right? And that's, food is a very social, it's a social factor. We eat, we break bread together, right? Not too much bread, hopefully. But yeah, and then like he can only really...

Paul Warloski (16:14)

Yeah

Paul Laursen (16:18)

when he's visiting me and he's got, you know, he's kind of, he's a business guy and he's kind of, he's away from his girls. And so it's not easy, definitely acknowledging that, but it's certainly possible as something you have to, it's ideal if you can get the rest of your family on track and at least eating a little bit that way, and then you can make some choices along the way too. So I'm not sure if you've experienced similar Marjaana or what you do from a...

Marjaana Rakai (16:35)

it's certainly possible as something you have to, it's ideal if you can get the rest of your family on track and at least eating a little bit that way and then it makes it so simple and good. So I'm not sure if you've experienced it or what you do from that sort of strategy. I definitely feel a little bit of resistance from my family every once in a while but like they're not pushing me, you know, like they're not pushing carbs down my throat.

Paul Laursen (16:48)

from that sort of strategy standpoint.

Marjaana Rakai (17:01)

Uh, a few eye-rolls here and there, but, yeah. But, um, like if you're, if you're traveling a lot and you go to these conferences, it can be really challenging to find low carb stuff, especially, um, here in North America or baseball tournaments.

Paul Warloski (17:06)

you have teenagers. That was good!

Paul Laursen (17:28)

Oh yeah, it's almost impossible in airports and stuff, eh? Like, oh my god.

Marjaana Rakai (17:34)

It is so challenging, but I always carry nuts in my purse. The other thing is that I was really aware of my brain sugar addiction. Like I used to eat candy. I loved candy. You know, like we grew up Saturdays, wow, candy day, we got a bag of candy. And so I was aware of the sugar addiction. And the funny thing is that.

When you get, when you see the results and you feel the results of that adaptation, you kind of start even, you know, like you don't fancy candy anymore. Like you just like walk by candy store and you're like, I don't want that crap. And it's amazing coming from candy addiction.

Paul Warloski (18:26)

Yeah, I walk past the good chocolate aisle and don't really, and it's like, I don't even think about it anymore because I've tried some and it's good still, but it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't taste the same. It's almost too sweet and it's the big change.

Marjaana Rakai (18:29)

Ooh.

Doesn't hit the spot anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, like for me, ultimate challenge would be to go to a Finnish grocery store and pass candy out there because Finnish chocolate is the best in the world, by the way. Fazer, yeah. No, no, Dutch have nothing on. So that would be ultimate challenge for me if I can just walk by.

Paul Warloski (18:53)

I'm sorry.

I thought that was Dutch chocolate. That's okay.

Marjaana Rakai (19:05)

Yes.

Paul Warloski (19:05)

All right, shall we shift gears to another listener question? This one actually comes from Athletica CEO Mark Bridges, who asked us,

Paul Laursen (19:09)

Definitely.

Paul Warloski (19:14)

how do we decipher the alphabet soup of terms that come on training programs? There's CTL, ATL, TSB, TSS, IFF, or IF.

Marjaana Rakai (19:25)

that tries to make it a little bit simpler.

Paul Warloski (19:28)

But then you look at training peaks and other programs that have all of these different abbreviations. So fitness, form, and fatigue are measured by CTL, ATL, and TSB. So let's talk about these three and what they mean. Paul, start us off. Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (19:46)

Yeah, well, it's amazing the number of users on...

Paul Laursen (19:47)

Okay. Yeah, well, it's amazing the number of users on Athletica that actually know a little bit about these. And they do chase these numbers and they get a little upset when they're not seeing what they want to see in terms of like, you know, Athletica does use these as a bit of a foundation for building the progression and the adaptation to the training program.

Marjaana Rakai (20:01)

seeing what they want to see. Like, you know, Athletica does use these as a bit of a foundation for building the progression and the adaptation to the training program. So, um, but a lot of times...

Paul Laursen (20:16)

So, but a lot of times, a lot of the problems you wanna see, ideally you kinda wanna see this steady rise in your CTL. Now CTL is analogous for, it stands for, in the training peaks context, it stands for chronic training load. And that is analogous for your fitness, right? And we always use that word, well, how fit can I get, right? So we often look at that blue line and we wanna see it trending upwards.

Marjaana Rakai (20:21)

Ideally you kind of want to see this steady rise in your CTL. Now CTL is analogous for, it stands for, in the training peaks context, it stands for chronic training load, and that is analogous for your fitness. We always use that word, how fit can I get, right? So we often look at that blue line, we want to see it trending upwards. The problem is...

Paul Laursen (20:45)

The problem happens sometimes with people in their user settings where they don't allow many training hours because they're time constrained, right? Like they might only have 10 hours to train in the week, so they put their max training hours as 10. If you put max training hours of 10, we have this, really, it's a duration-based or biased training load model.

Training load is a product of your intensity of exercise times your duration. So this is coming from your wearable and that is the stress, the training stress. And that's the main thing that's driving it. So if your duration, if you're confining the model to a low duration, the model can't help but keep it sort of flat line. And that is what happens sometimes. And that's, yeah.

Marjaana, you're answering user questions often, so keep that in mind if you're answering them. But that's what the CTL one is there, Paul. The other ones, the ATL, that's your fatigue, and that's like an acute effect.

Typically, we use the amount of fatigue that's amounted over seven days. So from an analytics standpoint, it's looking at a seven-day number.

the CTL, chronic training load or fitness, is looking at the amount of fatigue over a 42 day average. All right. And again, these are just estimates. They're not what's actually occurring in the body. We don't know those for sure. They're only estimates. So we can't get overly concerned, even though we tend to, right? A lot of us are number chasing. And then...

Marjaana Rakai (22:08)

or fitness is looking at the amount of fatigue over a 42 day average. And again, these are just estimates. They're not what's actually occurring in the body. We don't know those for sure. They're only estimates. We can't get overly concerned if we don't do the right. A lot of us are number two.

And then the TSB stands for, again, it's a training piece. Trademark name for training stress balance. We don't use that. We use competitors' original freshness. And we're trying to, and what Athletica is primarily trying to do is build your fitness and maximize your freshness. So that's what we wanna do. We wanna do as good as you can and as fresh as you can for your event.

Paul Laursen (22:36)

The TSB stands for, again, it's a Training Peaks trademark name for training stress balance. We don't use that. We use Bannister's original freshness. So we're trying to, and what Athletica is primarily trying to do is build your fitness and maximize your freshness. So that's what you want to do, right? You want to be as fit as you can and as fresh as you can before your...

Marjaana Rakai (23:02)

got the environment and so that's the that's its job that's the algorithm is always trying to search for and that's the that's uh start their part. I hear number chasing I think I think a lot of us have gone that road and I mean like you know back in old days we used to report our training

Paul Laursen (23:03)

event like Marjaana's got with Iron Man Texas coming up. So that's the that's its job. That's what the algorithm's always trying to search for. And that's it. Yeah, that's I'll start there, Paul.

Paul Warloski (23:22)

Thank you.

Marjaana Rakai (23:32)

We were, we just reported, okay, what did we do? How many minutes, how many of those minutes were, you know, uh, maybe tempo pace, right? We didn't have any of these numbers to calculate or build a model from. So remember guys, like, this is just the model. It's not like, you know, a hundred fitness hundred. It doesn't mean that you're, you know, like you're gonna nail your.

race or going to Olympics, you know, like it's, it, they are just numbers and you can, you can, I actually, I have experienced to perform pretty well with the lower number than in training because life happens, right? And you can do really well with the lower fitness number as well, because what you do in those sessions matter.

You know, like if you have 10 hours, say that you have two athletes, 10 hours, um, training volume per week, or let's say, um, somebody starting with the training with 10 hours a week, that's reasonably, you know, a lot of training for somebody who is working has family, da, da. What he does on those 10 hours matters, right? So somebody who is.

chasing numbers could be hitting it hard like every day, right? Over threshold, like every day. How long can he, you know, keep up with that? That high intensity training at 10 hours, probably not very long, right? And then he realizes, oh, I'm burned out. Maybe I need to start thinking like, maybe every other day I'll do something harder and every other day I'll do something easier and see how that, you know, how that affects the numbers. So.

Paul Laursen (25:28)

Totally.

Paul Warloski (25:30)

So, in, Turning Peaks uses intensity factor and Athletica is, uses load if I am correct. Is that, are those analogous?

Marjaana Rakai (25:42)

I think it is TSS, training, excuse me, and stands for training stress score.

Paul Laursen (25:43)

I think it is, so TSS training peaks uses and it stands for training stress score and Athletica uses the load, right? And then the intensity factor is the other one. And Athletica uses percent FTI, functional threshold fractional threshold intensity. So, and that's basically looking at

Marjaana Rakai (26:07)

So, and that's basically looking at what Maryam just said, it's what percentage of my TSS, sorry, what am I saying? Yeah, TSS is low. Yeah, TSS, training stress score is low. Right, and then the intensity factor is how intense that is, how intense that low is.

Paul Laursen (26:11)

what like what Marjaana just said is what percentage of my TSS. Sorry, what am I saying? Yeah, TSS is load. Yeah, TSS training stress score is load. Right. And then the intensity factor is how intense that is how intense that load is. And, and yeah, and

Marjaana Rakai (26:34)

And that's what it means to be the extra high percentage. So it functions like how much of the load is at a high intensity versus a low intensity. It's usually as a fraction of like, it's in like the zero point.

Paul Laursen (26:39)

So function, like how much of the load is at a high intensity versus a low intensity. And it's usually as a fraction of like, it's in like 0.78, say for example, would be a kind of a, that's 0.78 of your threshold or your, yeah, of your...

Marjaana Rakai (26:52)

0.78, say for example, would be a, kind of a, that's 0.78 of your threshold, of your, yeah, of your, of your, what is it, what is, we're missing one here, FTP, we're missing FTP, that's the one we're missing, this would be it. Yeah, functional threshold power. Yeah. Athletic is.

Paul Laursen (27:08)

No, yeah, of your, what is it? What is, I think we're missing one here. FTP, we're missing FTP, that's the one we're missing. Yeah, functional threshold power. And Athletica is using critical power now, critical power and critical speed. So again, so more alphabet soup here, right? I can see why this one's labeled alphabet soup. So we kind of needed, the one we needed there was indeed the...

Paul Warloski (27:15)

That's where, yeah.

That's, yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (27:31)

So, the one we needed there was indeed the STP.

Paul Laursen (27:36)

the FTP functional threshold power or the critical power. So this is, you're actually looking at what your threshold is, what your capability is ultimately over one hour. And that kind of calibrates all of these load markers, right? We need to know, we talked about the, you know, how much stress that you're going to get in any given.

Marjaana Rakai (27:40)

This is you're actually looking at what your threshold is, what your capability is ultimately over one hour. And that kind of calibrates all of these load markers, right? We need to know, we talked about, how much stress that you're going to get in any given training workout. You can train long or you can train hard.

Paul Laursen (28:04)

a given training workout. Well, you can train long or you can train hard or you can train long and hard, but we need to, we have a bigger stress if our intensity is high. So we need a demarcation point. We need a, like where are we gonna call hard? And we use critical power, which we get from your historical data. Training peaks uses your FTP, which you get from a 20 minute all out.

Marjaana Rakai (28:34)

and it's kind of, everyone started using a similar sort of normal thing. And when you get load from that, you calculate through, you get a load factor for mid through a given session based on that calibration point. And then the intensity factor is how much of that threshold that you worked at. And if you hit like one, then that's like, you're hitting right on the ref.

Paul Laursen (28:35)

So that's kind of everyone started using a similar sort of model there. And we get load from that. We calculate through and get a load factor for every given session based on that calibration point. And then the intensity factor is how much of that threshold have you worked at? And yeah, if you hit like one, then that's like...

you're hitting right on your FTP for the whole hour. If you hit like 1.02, that would have meant that you're above that, you actually exceeded that. So in the workout reserve, that would have been a negative workout reserve and you would have just exceeded your thresholds get reset because you've just hit a new maximal mean power.

Marjaana Rakai (29:25)

We get a lot of questions from our users why my load is this and that, either too much or too little. And oftentimes it's because they haven't done their 5k TT running test or, you know, either the FTP or critical power tests,

whatever it is, the standard that is on Athletica when they first signed up. So it's important to do those test weeks. Athletica can calculate your training load correctly. And your paces and power targets for each workout.

Paul Laursen (30:06)

Totally.

Yeah, it's a big one, really, really key. And it's something we're trying to automate that better for the future with doing a better retrospective kind of analysis when users are onboarding and looking at a better historical data. Because within two years of collected history, we should be able to capture those. But currently, we're not there yet. So we do have that limitation at the moment. But.

Paul Warloski (30:15)

So.

Paul Laursen (30:41)

Make no mistake about our amazing back end team is working on that innovation for the future. Shouldn't be too long now.

Paul Warloski (30:48)

One of the challenges that we have is that the FTP, especially the FTP number can vary so much day to day and week to week. It's an estimate at best. It's meant to be an estimate, but yet all of these training models are built on that number, which is an estimate. So there's like what Paul said in the beginning.

a tool for yourself to hopefully look at some kind of increasing fitness and compare the numbers with your own kind of work and your own progress, I guess is where I'm going with that. But is there some value in looking at intensity factor as an IF to judge, evaluate your ride?

point seven and I was planning on doing endurance ride. Is that a good ride?

Marjaana Rakai (31:53)

Yeah, well that means if you did an endurance ride at.7 and you're doing that at.7 of your FTP or critical power, whatever it may be. And yeah, it's just an overall global indicator of the external training load. And to me, it sounds like you did it at a different time. Yeah, you would have probably around your own time.

Paul Laursen (31:55)

Yeah, well, that means if you did an endurance ride at 0.7, then you're doing that at 0.7 of your FTP or critical power, whatever it may be. And yeah, it's just an overall global indicator of the external training load. And to me, it sounds like if you did it, yeah, you were probably around your...

Your L2, it sounded like a zone two kind of session. That's typically where it sits. And yeah, it's just kind of a box tick ultimately, is for sure, but it's only, you're only looking at the mean value of the external load. So we're looking at, you know, what you actually pushed in terms of mean power or yeah, like the normalized power and, and yep, that's,

Paul Warloski (32:26)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (32:51)

That's a good thing to look at for sure.

Paul Warloski (32:54)

Could you explain more about, you mentioned that Athletica uses more of the Banister model without going too far into the weeds. How is that different than, you know, computing form or training load?

Marjaana Rakai (33:07)

for training load. So all of these are the same and they is the TRIP model. So TRIP stands for training impulse. So Bannister started with this model. I don't know how many blanks I'm hearing. I think it might have been like 19 or 20 actually. I think I was saying 70 before.

Paul Laursen (33:12)

So all of these are the same and they is the TRMP model. So TRMP stands for training impulse. So Bannister started with this model. I'm always a blank on the year. I think it might've been like 1980 actually. I think I was saying 70 before, but maybe it was even 90 actually. It was yeah, Bannister from Simon Fraser University published the first look at this model. And it's the same stuff that we just described.

Marjaana Rakai (33:28)

I think it was in 90 actually. It was, yeah, a banister from at the San Jose University published the first look at this model. It's the same stuff that we just described, same thing that TriniPeaks, developed by Andy Cogan, used as their model. And, yeah, there's really, really no difference. TriniPeaks just had its form that they copied and trademarked.

Paul Laursen (33:41)

Same thing that TrainingPeaks developed by Andy Kogan used as their model. And, but yeah, there's really, really no difference. The TrainingPeaks just has one that they've copied and trademarked versus, and you know, like the, they're the first mover advantage. So everyone has just, you know, kind of adopted that terminology and it's, yeah. But it's really just a trim.

Marjaana Rakai (34:00)

so everyone's just kind of adopted that terminology. Yeah, but it's really just a trip model, a training impulse model that's used across all sports, even team sports as well, all use a trip model. You can use this with rating and perceived exertion as well, too, right? You can do an RPB-based trip model, too. So there's lots of ways, and we did the same as a bit of a backup.

Paul Laursen (34:12)

training impulse model that's used across all sports, even team sports as well. They'll use a TRMP model. And you can use this with rating of perceived exertion as well too, right? You can do an RPE-based TRMP model too. So there's lots of ways. And we do the same as a bit of a backup in Athletica too. So we have multiple kind of ways that we get that model happening in the background for you. But yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (34:30)

in athletic cartoons. We have multiple ways that we get that model happening in the background for you. Yeah, that's pretty much the same problem. The only thing I might add is that it's kind of going back to FTP and TFS and TSS. One of the things that we're trying to get from in terms of looking at your FTP is training peaks will

Paul Laursen (34:40)

That's pretty much the same, Paul.

The only thing I might add is that is kind of going back to FTP and TFS. One of the things that right from the get-go in terms of looking at your FTP, training peaks will take 5% off your 20-minute all-out power or pace, if we're going to use that in the running context, to...

Marjaana Rakai (35:01)

take 5% off your 20 minute power or pace. We'll use that in the running context to.

And that's just really, that's kind of a crew, it's a good guess, but it's not the same as critical power. And again, this is what we believe is an advantage in athletics, is we're looking right across the whole spectrum of your power profile to get your critical power and your critical pace across the different exercise modes. So we believe it's a superior method, and we're really, yeah,

Paul Laursen (35:14)

And that's just really, you know, like that's kind of a crude, it's a good, it's a good guess, but it's not the same as critical power. And again, this is, this is a, what we believe is an advantage in Athletica is, um, we're looking right across the whole spectrum of your power profile to get your critical power and your critical pace across the different, the different exercise modes. Um, so it's, we believe it's a superior method and we're really, yeah, we're,

Marjaana Rakai (35:43)

pumped about our methods, our methodology going forward. It feels more science-based than this arbitrary method.

Paul Laursen (35:43)

pretty pumped about our methodology going forward. And it feels more science-based than this arbitrary FTP kind of method that doesn't necessarily have a science-based. It was a great guess by Andy Kogan and kudos for the effort in the time, but it's time that we move on and we believe that others should follow the same method.

Marjaana Rakai (35:57)

necessarily have a science base. It was a great guess by Andy Pilgin and he did us for the effort and the time, but it's time to move on and do that. That others should follow the same method. Can we talk about aerobic decoupling? When, when do we want to look at that number? Because I look at that number where for my athletes on long rides, long bike rides.

Paul Laursen (36:16)

Sure.

Marjaana Rakai (36:28)

and look at how that numbers.

Paul Laursen (36:30)

Yeah.

great number. Yeah, it's a great number and it really, so the range of the number that we're like, well what is that number first? You're looking at an external load marker, so power or movement relative to an internal marker like your heart rate. Really that's the only one that we've got at this point in time. And what do you probably want to see in that? You want to see a low heart rate relative to a high power output. Let's just use the cycling context.

Marjaana Rakai (36:55)

you want to see a low heart rate relative to a high power. Just use the cycling context. And yeah, we see that. And reverse the figures in terms of the mathematics. But basically, if you can go, like when I coached, I was able to coach some of the top Ironman athletes in the world, and I know when they are absolutely going to kill it, when they're able to...

Paul Laursen (37:04)

And yeah, we see that and reverse the figures in terms of the mathematics. But basically if you can go, like when I coached, pledged to coach some of the top Ironman athletes in the world and I know when they are absolutely going to kill it, when their A-Row decoupling numbers start going negative, right? So they'll go out in these six, eight hour rides and I'm seeing like negative.

Marjaana Rakai (37:24)

start going negative. So, the other one is six, eight hour rides, and I'm seeing like negative three, negative four, negative five, kind of thing. So, they were just to Marjaana's point earlier in the podcast where we were talking about...

Paul Laursen (37:32)

three, negative four, negative five kind of thing, right? So they're just to Marianna's point earlier in the podcast where we were talking about the fat adaptation process and they just get the something hits in the back half of the training session and they start going stronger relative in their output, their external load output relative to how hard their internal body is working.

Marjaana Rakai (37:40)

that adaptation process and it just gets the something hits in the back half of the training session and they start going stronger relative in their output, their external low output relative to how hard their internal body is working and we see these massive negative numbers for these incredible world champions.

Paul Laursen (38:02)

And we see these massive negative numbers in these incredible world champions.

Marjaana Rakai (38:11)

So when you're building up, say somebody's building up for a marathon. So we're building up long runs. Um, what I've done is I, I start like monitoring the aerobic decoupling. Say when we're in the building up the distance and aiming to hit a little bit, like between five and 10%, I know that if they hit less than five, they are good to extend it a little bit.

Paul Laursen (38:42)

Mm-hmm. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm not using it that way, but that's a brilliant, that's a great coaching kind of way to go about it because yeah, again, if it's only going to 5%, in other words, your power is only falling and your heart rate is only lifting 5% different, then that's great relative to a number that's like 10 or 15 or 20.

Paul Warloski (38:42)

Hmm.

Marjaana Rakai (38:42)

Is that okay.

Paul Warloski (38:46)

Hmm.

Paul Laursen (39:13)

then that's kind of alarming and saying, well, your heart rate's drifting really, really high and you're not showing good durability, right? So you don't want that heart rates going skyward and splitting, you want it stable. The more it locks in and is stable at these, especially aerobic intensities, that's giving us confidence that the body is just dialed into hitting those numbers.

Marjaana Rakai (39:13)

and saying, well, your heart rate's drifting really, really high and you're not showing good durability. So you don't want that heart rate going skyward and splitting. You want it stable. The more it locks in, the more stable it is, especially aerobic intensities, that's giving us confidence that the body is just.

to getting those numbers, those external load numbers. And if the number is going up a lot, then I look at their pace. Maybe they pace themselves a little bit too hard so that they're running just a tad a little too fast. And then I ask them to, the next time, to slow down a little bit and see how that feels, like how.

Paul Laursen (39:42)

those external load numbers.

Paul Warloski (39:55)

Hmm

Paul Laursen (40:02)

Yeah, great coaching advice, Marjaana. And don't forget also the podcast we did on the heat is another factor there too, right? So when you go into the heat and we see the heat can also exacerbate that internal heart rate load number, making it higher. So you might, in the first time you are adapting in the heat, you might not see, you might see a larger, you know.

Marjaana Rakai (40:28)

a rubber feet couple number like towards 10%. Whereas in this acclimated process, it might start keeping closer to 5% or less. And that would be like supreme feet acclimated. It's not even the plasma volume is expanded. It's not phasing. Cool. Good point.

Paul Laursen (40:29)

aerobic decoupling number like, you know, towards 10%. Whereas in the heat acclimated process, you might down be, you know, start being closer to, you know, 5% or less than that would be like supreme heat acclimated kind of thing. It's not even your plasma volumes expanded. It's not phasing you. So, yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (40:49)

So why do these numbers matter?

Paul Laursen (40:53)

Well, they keep us on track and honest, right? I think this really kind of comes back to the purpose of Athletica, right? Like it's, we're trying to have a system that can help guide athletes and coaches towards their successful performance and their whole, you know, their process. And these numbers help inform on our process. That's a great question. I think that's, you know, they're not,

the be all end all as we spoke about, we shouldn't be chasing numbers. But that being said, we should be paying attention to the numbers because they allow for conversations such as these.

Paul Warloski (41:36)

That's about as good a summaries we're going to get.

Thank you for listening. Thank you for the listener questions because that's what drives this podcast. And join us next week for the Athletes Compass podcast. You can help us by asking your training questions in the comments here in our social medias, liking and sharing the podcast, giving us five star reviews.

Marjaana Rakai (41:39)

listening. Thank you for the listener questions because that's what drives this podcast. And join us next week for the Athletes Compass podcast. You can help us by asking your training questions and the comments here, on our social medias, liking and sharing the podcast, giving us five star reviews, and engaging with us on the social medias, on Instagram and wherever else we are, for Marjaana, Marjaana Rukai.

Paul Warloski (42:01)

engaging with us on the social medias on Instagram and wherever else we are. For

Rakai and Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass Podcast.

Marjaana Rakai (42:07)

I'm Paul Wurlowski and this has been the athletes compass.