Protein, Recovery, and Performance for Female Athletes

Paul Warloski (00:25)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness, and health for everyday athletes. If you are a female endurance athlete, especially over 40, you are going to

special attention to today's podcast. Our guest is nutritionist, Mikki Williden PhD.

And we are diving into the unique nutritional challenges faced by older female endurance athletes due to training demands and age related changes. Mikki has been studying nutrition since her undergraduate days and now hosts an amazing weekly podcast called Micapedia, where she delves into topics like nutrition, longevity, fitness, and

Mikki's a really fast runner herself. She's clocked a two 55 marathon, which is incredible.

So Mikki, what first drew you to nutrition and what keeps you passionate about it?

Mikki Williden (01:20)

Great question, Paul. And firstly, thanks so much for inviting me on the podcast. I feel honored to come on and chat about this and excited because it's such a, such a pattern area for me. I think truthfully, it was my obsession with diet and exercise as a teenager. So I was, I'm a twin and I grew up the chubby twin and my mother and I dieted.

Paul Laursen (01:35)

you

Mikki Williden (01:46)

when I, it was the thing you did back in the eighties. You would like join your mom on the latest fad diet, like Rosemary Connolly's hip and thigh diet, know, whatever the Women's Weekly was doing at the time. And it really got me interested in diet and nutrition and probably, and exercise, and of course, probably not in a particularly healthy way. But that's, but I feel like it's...

Paul Warloski (01:58)

You

Mikki Williden (02:14)

was the thing that sort of propelled me to want to learn more. And then there was, you know, body for life. And I got into doing phys ed at university in addition to nutrition. And I guess it just grew from there. And like all of you, I'm sure I have a passion for learning and for trying to understand the research and also make it applicable to the sort of the general population.

Paul Warloski (02:37)

So we aim to provide practical advice for everyday athletes, most of whom are runners, triathletes, cyclists, taking on everything from half marathons to ultras to Ironmans. Many women experience hormonal changes during perimenopause and menopause. How do these changes impact endurance training and what kind of nutritional strategies can women implement to mitigate those negative effects on performance and recovery?

Mikki Williden (03:07)

So some of the sort of really the larger things which can occur or the major things that can occur are both sort of both hormonal but then it's how those hormones affect behavior and habits, right? And I feel like that's where you can really sort of dive into nutritional strategies to help offset some of those. So as a woman goes through perimenopause, she's more

insulin, she becomes more insulin resistant. In part, it is there is a declining in the estrogen levels. But actually over perimenopause, estrogens all over the place. it times it maybe even three times as high as what would be considered normal. And we have estrogen receptors on every sort of cell on it in our body, you know, it's everywhere. And that's why the changing hormones affects so many different areas.

for some women, not all women, but for some women, there's an increase in inflammation due to these changing levels of estrogen, increased histamine response, and that's going to impact on recovery. The decline in progesterone will impact potentially on sleep because progesterone is a really sort of, it's a calming brain neurotransmitter as well. And so if you're not sleeping well, well one, there's

then it's obviously going to impact recovery, but it can also impact on how often we hit snooze in the morning rather than get up and do our training. So I think that's something else that I see. We don't tolerate alcohol as well. And I know obviously everyone has a different relationship with alcohol and how much they drink or otherwise, but even for some women, one glass of wine, they might usually otherwise enjoy is

going to impact again on that sleep disruption, levels of inflammation, the changing insulin level or the subsequent change in how we tolerate carbohydrate can change how we distribute body fat or how we store body fat, I'm sorry. So there is an increase in that mid range or mid level.

belly fat that that someone woman experience and they've never carried fat around the middle before. In part, this also is because while it's estrogen and it's that change in inflammation as well. But also how we use carbohydrate during training. To my mind, this needs to change some of those habits and behaviors as well, particularly if you've come through that really high carb era, which I know a lot of people are, have or

or RN, it's more likely that we lose muscle, particularly if we're not aiming at protecting muscle during perimenopause. Because again, if you're insulin resistant, you aren't able to get energy into that cell, potentially going to, or you lose muscle mass anyway. We are more anabolically resistant. So we are much like the insulin resistance.

We aren't able to access or use those amino acids as effectively. Of course, training changes that, you know, to become better at, to offset that training does help that. So there's a lot going on basically, but also there's a lot we can do.

Paul Warloski (06:39)

Hmm

Paul Laursen (06:40)

It's all making sense for me with my wife, my poor wife, going through lot of little changes right now.

Marjaana Rakai (06:41)

Thanks.

You

Paul Warloski (06:48)

Same here. My wife as well. It's just, I feel badly, you know, it's like there is so much change happening. Yeah.

Mikki Williden (06:51)

I

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (07:00)

I'm sorry, I was watching both balls were making notes and I'm nodding. I'm like, yes, yes.

Mikki Williden (07:06)

For sure, but of course, you know, there's so much that we can do. And I think that's the thing. And I feel like sometimes people feel that these hormonal changes are inevitable and they're just going to feel this way. It's just age and they just have to get through. But in addition to the obvious, which is HRT, there are so many things that you can do from a habits and behavior and a diet and how you...

approach training, which doesn't mean that you have to change everything you're doing. And I feel this is a really important point, particularly for us in that endurance space. So often we hear that, you we have to change the way that we train, the way that we do, you know, long distance training, all those longer sessions, which are sort of a cornerstone of an endurance athlete. It's how we become better at being an endurance athlete. And then you hear that, you know, it's bad for you and you shouldn't be doing it.

So that's what I talk to a lot of women about is, how do you sort of navigate those changes so you can still do the things that you love, but also get the most from it too.

Paul Laursen (08:15)

Yeah. I mean, I think you've raised a, to me is a really important point. I'm hearing these strange, it, Marjaana tells me about them sometimes, but these strange messages where, you know, zone two training could be potentially detrimental for women in this, in this period of time, which sounds absolutely crazy based on what you just told me. Like you're saying there's, you know, there's problems ultimately with carbohydrate handling.

And to me, sounds like, well, zone two training could only be of assistance in that in terms of its ability to use fat as a fuel and to handle carbohydrate to become less insulin resistant, right? Because these hormones and stuff, they're going to move possibly. But if you have a more robust overall system able to handle those changes, to me, that puts you up in a...

Mikki Williden (08:56)

Mm

Paul Laursen (09:13)

better situation, reducing the incidence of over fat that you described and all those sorts of things.

Mikki Williden (09:21)

Paul, I 100 % agree. it really surprises me that people don't talk more about this, if I'm honest. And even if I'm thinking about women who it's not necessarily the focus of what we're discussing today, but women in the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle, where you are slightly more insulin resistance as well. And to me, the solution isn't just to push that carbohydrate more during training, it's to get better fat adapted so you're not so reliant on it. Like it's just, and hey, but.

Everyone does things differently, I suppose.

Marjaana Rakai (09:54)

I'm so glad that we're talking about this because it has been, it's just so puzzling that the message, but the more I'm thinking about it, the more I think it's so important to define what that low intensity training is because we have like one to three intensity zone system, we have up to seven. So when we're looking at like, when we're talking about that zone one,

which in zone five system is basically walking or you you go for a nice little bike ride with your kids. But if we're focusing on that or like a lot of women walk for fitness. And to me, it's not intensive enough. Your heart rate doesn't get high enough.

Mikki Williden (10:37)

Mmm.

Marjaana Rakai (10:46)

A couple of times we've been talking about the runner's high. We're all runners, so we know what we're talking about, but you can't get into intensity high enough that you can actually elicit the runner's high, the feel good, the flow when you're walking. So I think like when we're looking at like people who talk about you should not do zone two training, I think part of it might be that

Mikki Williden (10:59)

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (11:13)

They're talking about don't do aerobic training too hard going into the moderate intensity, which would be, you know, the gray zone or sweet spot because that taxes your body a little bit more and takes longer to recover from. So.

Mikki Williden (11:32)

think your point on recovery is a really important one, Marjaana and that's where I feel we... think auto -regulation is key with any of this. Like, you'll get a guru telling you that this is the way it is, and this is what you should or shouldn't do. And so we almost lose sight of the fact that we give away some of that power of our own decision -making, and we listen instead to the rules and behaviors that, you know, because this is how women experience this.

you know, perimenopause. So this is what you must or mustn't do. But instead, we just need to focus on, on auto regulation. And, you know, how do we feel, you know, how do we feel during training? And are we allowing enough recovery? And sometimes you do have to sort of step back and go, you know what, all indicators are that I'm not recovering from the training that I used to be able to recover easily from. So I might need to change some things. And it doesn't mean

Paul Laursen (12:12)

Mm

Mikki Williden (12:29)

giving away some of those, or the aspects of training that you really love or that you really need in order to be an endurance athlete. But it is focusing more on, know, potentially how do I prioritize sleep better? Because it's something that we talk about a lot, or I talk about a lot with women is in this age, often, you you might be in the throes of, you know, the...

your career, you may be raising children, you're trying to maintain your relationships with friends, you know, you may have a partner, you're running a household, you may be caring for parents. And in all of those things, often women forget to prioritize themselves or training is how they prioritize themselves. And I think that's great. But I also think that, you know, if your sleep is suffering, or if you're not listening to other signs and symptoms around

that under recovery, then that's where changes do need to be made for sure.

Paul Warloski (13:29)

Thank

Marjaana Rakai (13:35)

Absolutely. think sleep plays such a big part of it. And I've noticed when I've prioritized sleep, everything else kind of falls into place. You you've recovered better, your cognitive abilities are better. So whatever a female endurance athlete in their 40s, 50s, 60s need to do, do they need to drop that glass of wine to sleep better?

Well, it depends on your priorities, Occasional glass of wine, it's fine. You're having it with dinner with your friends or as we discovered earlier during our athletes compass podcast, have to have that 12 o 'clock with your lunch instead of with dinner. So, you know, like you said, like we're all so different too.

Mikki Williden (14:20)

Yes!

Yeah.

For sure, and a few things which I encourage people to think about when it comes to sleep, if they're having sleep related issues, which many women experience. Firstly, are you actually just under fueling? So one of the biggest issues I see with sleep is that people who under fuel during the day particularly, and then potentially binge at night or graze,

Paul Warloski (14:45)

and

Mikki Williden (15:00)

at night and overeat their calories. Like they're not getting their fuel when they need it. And that stress on the body can impact on cortisol, particularly cortisol levels in the evening time. So they're unable to optimize their melatonin production because cortisol and melatonin work in opposition together or alongside each other.

So certainly looking at fueling and protein plays a big part in that and we I think we'll probably discuss that soon. Caffeine, you know a lot of people who are sleep deprived rely heavily on caffeine and where they used to maybe be able to tolerate three or four coffees sometimes they don't even tolerate just one and I really encourage anyone with sleep problems to actually just try, I mean I love coffee but

Paul Laursen (15:47)

Thank

Paul Warloski (15:55)

Yeah.

Mikki Williden (15:55)

actually just see how you feel without it for, you know, once you get over the withdrawal, like, does it actually change your sleep? Because for some people it really can, even the 10 a coffee can impact on how they sleep later in the evening time. And with regards to habits and behaviors, like when you ask someone who really doesn't have a lot of time during the day to focus on things you want to focus on, then you're unwind just to sit either watching television or on your device.

Paul Warloski (16:01)

and

Thank

Mikki Williden (16:25)

That's something that which you may need to change as well. Like even how you engage with it, like do you need blue light blocking glasses when you're watching TV to help offset some of that blue light? What's the light environment like in your house? know, lights that are above your eye line impact the brain differently than lights that are below your eye line in the evening time. Because above your eye line,

you know, your brain sort of gets that signal or read that it's sort of light and it's not necessarily time to unwind and go to bed. Even if it's junk light, even if that light isn't actually bright enough to elicit, you know, that proper sort of awake signal, but lights that are more orange toned, that are below the eye line, send different signals to the brain as well. So looking at your light environment can help.

And then of course, my area, or much more related to nutrition would be the foods you eat at night and the supplements that you can take to help support sleep. And I can talk about them if...

Paul Laursen (17:34)

Yeah, yeah, was kind of where I was going to go a bit. You mentioned fueling is really important to allow the person to go to sleep. I couldn't agree more, but there's lots of different ways that we could interpret fueling before. So what are some good recommendations for what type of fueling are we actually talking about? Mikki in the dinner time before bed period, what's your recommendations there?

Mikki Williden (17:50)

Mm.

Paul Warloski (17:52)

Thank

Mikki Williden (18:03)

Yeah.

with regards to carbohydrate, like, actually having carbohydrate in the evening meal can help reduce a bit of the stress on the central nervous system, actually. and I'm not talking about large amounts, or a whole heap of sugar or anything like that, but some starch, know, sweet potato, potato,

serotonin.

Paul Laursen (18:22)

Yeah, like even like a slow, slow release kind of carbohydrate too, right? Like an, like a nice, like an apple or a pear or these sorts of things, right? Like nothing wrong with that, especially if it's, if it's off the back of, you know, a protein, fat laden kind of, kind of dinner as well, right?

Mikki Williden (18:26)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, because you don't want to just have like a full on sort of high carbohydrate meal without that protein and fat. I think that's important because that will change how your body responds because you'll, know, spike insulin and your blood sugars can crash later on, but it's having a small amount of carbohydrate to help produce serotonin, which is a precursor to melatonin. And that does, and that impacts of course on that central nervous system. So if you feel really

Paul Warloski (19:01)

you

Mikki Williden (19:11)

sort of wired across the day, that can change, sort of just relax your body a little bit, I guess is a way to describe it. But also it's not just in that evening meal, I feel like it's across the day. So getting that protein distributed appropriately across the day, so you are able to regulate blood sugar, better than just having either too few calories, which can...

stress your central nervous system as well and impact on blood sugar regulation or having a diet that is too low protein. this is, know, sometimes people think that if they have like a smoothie for breakfast and they have a chicken salad at lunch and then they have a piece of meat at dinner, then that's a high protein diet. But if you sort of do the math on that, that might only be, you know, one to 1 .2 grams per kg of body weight of

protein, whereas I talked to athletes about getting, I would say a minimum of two grams of protein per kg body weight. And in fact, I was speaking to a researcher and a scientist in Florida, Jose Antonio, and he's now published a couple of case studies whereby his endurance athletes have like older, so I say older, perimenopause, sort of menopause -y age.

And they're having three grams per KD of body weight for recovery, you know, depending on your size, that may be a lot of protein. might actually not absolute values be that much either, because it's the amino acids help with that recovery and repair of muscle tissue. And as athletes, you're just breaking down muscle all the time. Sort of went on a tangent on protein, but so, you know, I often, think people need to think more about that as well.

Paul Laursen (21:02)

Totally.

Yeah. So, yeah, Jose Antonio was on the training science podcast with me as well. He said, said the exact same thing. think it's his wife actually, that's on three, three grams per, per kilo. And she's just this kick -ass, masters female cyclist. think she's winning, winning, winning events and stuff in the U S and, and, yeah, and she's really like quite stable as a result, you know, anecdotally from him. So that's great that, that, that, you know,

Mikki Williden (21:13)

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (21:33)

You're aligned with that, Mikki.

Mikki Williden (21:36)

Yeah, completely am. And often, like with the alcohol thing, like I think appropriate carbohydrate across the day as well can help offset things like alcohol cravings too. You know, like a lot of us, you know, you may feel like, I just could really do with like a wine at the of the day to help unwind. But sometimes it's that you didn't get your carbohydrate. We didn't think about putting in carbohydrate post -training, which is where I like to see it.

Again, it's things like fruit or sweet potato, potato and rice, they're my general sort of like recommendations. And of course, people will have what they want, but as like I sometimes feel like those cravings that tend to sort of kick up around perimenopause, menopause can be offset by thinking more about how people are setting up their diet across the day in that regards as well.

Marjaana Rakai (22:34)

I remember Dr. Jose talked about creatine as well.

Mikki Williden (22:41)

Yes, yeah, I am a huge fan of creatine and I think most people would be like out of all the supplements, caffeine aside, like creatine is probably one of the ones that has the most robust sort of evidence behind it. And so that's definitely one that I recommend women take. And some women are, you know, they're a little bit hesitant because of the potential bloating that can occur or water retention.

that can occur when you begin creatine Not for everyone though, like it certainly didn't, like I didn't have that issue when I started taking it a couple of years ago. But for most people, it's a transient state and it just lasts maybe a couple of weeks. But I will say that I have chatted to some women who really experience additional bloating and

Paul Warloski (23:38)

Thank you.

Mikki Williden (23:38)

you know, really increased symptoms in their luteal phase of the menstrual cycle when they take creatine, like that water retention is even worse. And also in perimenopause, some women experience even more sort of bloating and things like that. if someone's listening to this and they notice that they have increased symptoms around their luteal phase, like I would just say, sort of come off it.

for those seven days and then start taking it again. Otherwise there is no reason to cycle creatine. I have friends that have been on creatine for 20 years, it's no issue. But if you do notice challenges there, then that would be what I would recommend. And also think about the dosing as well, like three grams of creatine is what I

Marjaana Rakai (24:30)

with.

kind of threw the menopause question to you in the beginning, but we didn't kind of like, I think it's important to define how can, how do we know that we're in perimenopause? Because yes, the estrogen fluctuates a lot depending on who you are, probably a lot of different factors in there. But some of the common

symptoms are related to sleep and know, bloating and some of the symptoms mimic overtraining. Like night sweats, you're sleeping poorly, brain fatigue. What are some of the symptoms that you see in endurance athletes that are maybe

Mikki Williden (25:10)

Yes.

Yeah.

Marjaana Rakai (25:27)

approaching perimenopause.

Mikki Williden (25:30)

Yeah, great. And Mariani, you mentioned some of the major sort of common ones and also what you said about the symptoms mimicking overtraining. I think that's important too. Like if you speak to doctors and specialists in the area, they will say, you know, there's no blood tests to say you are in perimenopause. You know, like they base it on symptoms, they base it on age. Of course there are changes in FSH like

Marjaana Rakai (25:49)

Mm

Mikki Williden (25:59)

follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone, but ultimately they base it on those other things. And I would also say check blood biomarkers for nutrients like iron, because many of the symptoms that you've just mentioned can be a function of low iron, like the fatigue and the cognitive challenges and brain fog. Thyroid is another one as well, and thyroid...

for men and women does tend to decline, thyroid function decline as we age or it can. Look at levels of B12 as well and don't just rely on your doctor to tell you that you are within normal reference range because that doesn't necessarily reflect an optimal level for you. And so,

I also encourage women to get these nutrients also tested. But there are other symptoms as well, Marjaana, like itchy ears and dry skin. These are two things which women experiences. In fact, you can get phantom smells like you like...

you may be sitting there and you're like, what's that burnt toast smell? And no one's like burning toast. Like this is another symptom. if I think, I think I looked at a list once that was like 108, you know, had 108 different things on it that someone can experience. you know, so clearly with so many symptoms, there's so much overlap for other things as well that may be going on.

Marjaana Rakai (27:24)

No.

Paul Warloski (27:29)

Ha!

Marjaana Rakai (27:41)

While we're talking about supplements, we mentioned creatine. I started taking triple magnesium to see what effect it has on my sleep. I'm also taking herbal supplement like valerian root, which I find that it

Mikki Williden (27:59)

Yes.

Marjaana Rakai (28:01)

helps me fall asleep faster and stay asleep. What else?

Mikki Williden (28:05)

Mm

Marjaana Rakai (28:10)

herbal supplements would you recommend like ashwagandha or others

Mikki Williden (28:18)

yes, I really like ashwagandha for some people. You know, it helps reduce cortisol. It definitely helps with sleep. one thing we haven't, another symptom of perimenopause is increased anxiety, actually, you know? And so ashwagandha can be really helpful for that. There is some contraindication, like people who have autoimmune conditions or thyroid conditions.

or who may have a sensitivity to nightshades is, you know, so it's not a blanket statement that I, sorry, a blanket supplement, which I would recommend to everyone, but certainly for those that tolerate it, can be really helpful. In addition to magnesium, taurine, which is an amino acid, and B6 can really help with GABA neurotransmitter production.

So, and you can get supplements which have magnesium, taurine and B6 in them. I would just say be mindful. You don't want to overdose on the B6. You don't want your total B6 to be, you know, above maybe 50 milligrams a day. So just be mindful of where you're getting your supplemental B6 from. There are two others like inositol and glycine can also sort of

act on the brain in a calming way as well. And so if magnesium isn't enough for some people, then two grams of inositol and three grams of glycine in powder form. And it's super cheap actually, and pretty easy to get from most sort of online supplement places. And that's all, you know, they're just powders. That can also be really helpful,

Paul Warloski (30:05)

Mikki, strength training is often something, you you've mentioned that already, you know, some heavy lifting is recommended for endurance athletes to improve performance and prevent injury. What are some beneficial nutritional tools that you'd recommend to support strength training?

Mikki Williden (30:23)

Most of what we've talked about, Paul, so I think that like protein is key to my mind. So with strength training to help with bone and also muscle, need obviously that those two stimuli. So you need the strength training and you need the protein. So in the amounts that I've already mentioned, the sort of two grams per kilogram body weight, but also what we know, well,

as far as we know from science as it stands, is that the older you get, the more amino acids you need at one time for the brain to get that signal to initiate that muscle protein synthesis response. And leucine is a critical amino acid for that. will sort of initiate that. as we, know, if you were in your mid twenties, you may only need about, you know, two grams of leucine to be able to achieve that.

response to initiate muscle protein synthesis, but the older we get, the more we need. And so you might need even three and half or four grams of of leucine and you'll be able to get that if you have a good quality protein source with, so, know, whey or animal based protein source and an amount of that might be about 40 grams of protein in a meal.

So you often, people are recommending at least 20 grams of protein, but I think that my read of the literature is probably 40 grams of protein in a meal is what you want to be shooting for, which is different from 40 grams of meat. And I know that's obvious probably to us, but not to a lot of people. A lot of people think if I just have 50 gram serve of meat, then I've got my protein. Whereas 100 grams of cooked meat generally will have about

maybe 24, 25 grams of protein. So, and the brain needs that a couple of times a day. So it needs it. So the easiest way to sort of think about it is, you know, 40 grams minimum protein for breakfast. And I am a fan of breakfast. Hit it again at dinner time and then.

sort of collect the rest of your protein to meet your overall requirement across the course of the day. So it might be, you know, protein rich snack and of course lunch as well. so that's, so, and then, so that to my mind is how you're giving your protein in to help support your strength based training and the recovery from that training, but also to get that maximal muscle protein synthesis response.

Paul Warloski (33:02)

Is there anything with the timing of the protein after a workout?

Mikki Williden (33:08)

If you look at the literature, Paul, like total protein will trump protein timing actually. And I have, like you hear different things. Like I hear some people say that you must get your protein in immediately post exercise because of the anabolic resistance that we experience. Yet I also hear that in fact, anabolic resistance is overcome by the training itself. So it doesn't actually matter when you get that protein in. I would say that

If you ask someone, like I talk to a lot of people who are trying to improve their body composition and want to drop body fat. So I do encourage timing their nutrition around their training because I feel like their recovery is better for it because you're already playing with less calories anyway. So looking after training by fueling appropriately and then, and then getting in your sort of protein calories post to help recovery can help offset.

sort of cravings and help improve recovery in my experience. There's no research to probably support that, but that's just my clinical experience.

Marjaana Rakai (34:17)

This also, I've heard taking like a 10, 20 grams of protein before a strength workout could be beneficial, but I don't know if this literally...

Mikki Williden (34:24)

Hmm.

Yeah, I've heard that as well and I just haven't found any, I mean, any studies to show that this particular amount is essential. And I think that really comes into the, you hear so much, women shouldn't train fasted as well, that we need to make sure every workout is in a fed state.

Marjaana Rakai (34:35)

Yeah.

Mikki Williden (34:54)

And I think Paul and you and I have discussed this in the past is that many of those endurance adaptations, you know, may be better or enhanced when you aren't training in a fed state. I don't know, again, it comes back to auto regulation, doesn't it? Like, how do you feel when you train fasted? How do you recover? Are you able to get your training sort of metrics that you're...

wanting to achieve with that session? Are you able to be your fittest, strongest self doing what you're doing already or do you need to change things up? I think always looking at the individuals important.

Marjaana Rakai (35:31)

you

Paul Laursen (35:31)

Yeah, know, context wins always, right, with all these various different things. And really, when it comes down, it comes down to the individual and their ability to develop their own listening skills in terms of what their body needs. I don't think there's anything wrong with experimenting with any of these methods, whether it's fastest training, fed training, HIIT, L2 work, like it's all sort of important.

Mikki Williden (35:37)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (35:59)

at the right place at the right time. But it's, I think it's when you get locked in your ways, you can run into these problems. And it brings me to one thing I wanted to ask you about is this, you've spoken a lot about energy to the system, right? And there's this thing that, item that people talk about, red S, right, or reds. Maybe can you define for the listener what...

Mikki Williden (36:16)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (36:26)

what reds is first and then maybe what the potential issues around that are. And not just in perimenopausal, but in younger females, humans ultimately.

Mikki Williden (36:36)

Mm.

Yeah, so relative energy deficiency in sport is essentially what, and it almost sort of defines itself, doesn't

but it's also about physiological changes to the system and also psychological changes and performance, detriments and things like that. But if we're thinking about low energy availability, then

Low energy availability is when you, ultimately is the thing that can drive REDS And it is when an athlete has, when you're looking at calorie intake, there's not enough

Paul Laursen (37:14)

yeah, and it's, it's ultimately there's the, there's two, there's not enough calories for the system and it forms a stress in the brain. And then, and there's, there's a stress response and, and, but it's, you know, it goes back to all of the, if we have a, like, I'll geek out for a little bit, right? But we have a,

Mikki Williden (37:22)

Thank you.

Paul Laursen (37:33)

HPA axis, right? And then that HPA axis, hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, it talks to the gonadal axis and all the hormones and stuff that you spoke about in the beginning, they're all kind of cycled as well. And there's a whole bunch of nasty little problems that kind of happen along the way. things like they manifest in stress fractures for women and the lack of the ability to deposit bone.

Paul Warloski (37:40)

you

Paul Laursen (38:03)

in the younger female and probably all of us as

is there an issue with estrogen, which is the key hormone that deposits bone to the, is that how it works? Yeah.

Mikki Williden (38:15)

yeah. yeah, absolutely. So there is, you know, a reduction in estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, like all of those hormones, thyroid, and these are so important for energy metabolism and bone health and muscle growth and brain health as well. So that's why all of those systems, I said sort of at the start of the podcast, like we've got, for example, estrogen receptors everywhere in our body, same with thyroid receptors as well.

Paul Laursen (38:32)

Yep. Yep.

Mikki Williden (38:45)

So all of these things are going to be impacted. it's critical, like for your young athletes, it's such a critical time period up until they're at least 20, where we're still developing and growing, where you're reaching that peak bone mass. And you really do set yourself up for challenges with bone health later on, which is so important in terms of our overall longevity. And this is an important...

area just to shift back to the, you know, that sort of perimenopause or, you know, women and older, like we lose bone mass anyway, because of that, those declines in hormones. And so the dietary strategies that we're discussing are ways to help protect bone and muscle as we age. Because we, you know, we're doing this now as middle -aged athletes and we, ideally we want to, we want to be athletes in our seventies and eighties.

also doing that. So it does have to be sort of that big picture thinking.

Paul Laursen (39:47)

Yeah. And there's also a really important window in that younger age to load bone on so that when we get to perimenopause, where we know it's coming down, we have more to kind of, you know, more protection ultimately for the inevitable decline that is going to happen from age, I don't know, 40, 50 or whatever, whenever it starts going down, Mikki.

Mikki Williden (39:52)

Hmm... Yes. Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. obviously, calcium is the micronutrient that we talk all of the time about with regards to bone health. And it is super important. And the best place to get calcium for people who tolerate dairy is dairy products, but also protein matters. You your bone is 50 % protein. And particularly in that young age group, like if they have a healthy appetite, it's probably

easy enough for them to get the protein load they need because they're generally eating enough food already. But diet quality is important as well. we talked about protein quality, but there are other micronutrients that are important for bone health like silica, boron, magnesium, phosphorus, you know, it's so much more than just calcium. It's all of these things as well. And reducing inflammation, know, inflammation is,

one of a big driver of bone loss. And so if you're not doing things to help with recovery and to reduce inflammation in general, and Paul, know you wrote a paper about, it had this amazing, I still think about it and talk about it often, about the athlete that's unable to recover because their diet's really terrible and they've just got increased inflammation. This is another reason to eat in a way to help.

Paul Laursen (41:13)

Hmm.

Mikki Williden (41:40)

reduce inflammation as well because bone loss is another, you know, something that can occur if you're not thinking about things like that.

Marjaana Rakai (41:51)

And how does healthy fats play in there too?

Mikki Williden (41:56)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you've got, obviously you've got your Omega threes, which come from, you know,

fatty fish is the best dietary source of Omega threes. We talk a lot about walnuts and flax seeds and chia seeds being rich sources of Omega threes, but they do have Omega three fats, which drive the sort of the anti -inflammatory sort of processes in the body. But those

omega -3 fats have to be converted into the longer chain fats, the EPA and DHA that are really what we want. So getting your sardines, salmon, mackerel for people who don't eat those foods or for plant -based athletes in algae supplements, actually, you know, they're, they're a really good source of those omega -3s.

Paul Warloski (42:38)

you

Mikki Williden (42:49)

but then of course you've got people talk about omega -3 fats and omega -6 fats and omega -6 fats from things like avocado and nuts and seeds and actual food based sources are not an issue to my mind. You know, it's the, it's that a lot of processed foods also have omega -6 fats, which changes that ratio of omega -3 to omega -6 that can either promote

or that can promote inflammation can be an issue if you have a diet that's full of processed food because a lot of processed food has a lot of those omega -6 fats from things like seed oils and things like that, again, it comes down to context, but that type of diet generally isn't a diet that is sort of a high quality diet.

Paul Warloski (43:43)

So Mikki, what would be

in your eyes, the takeaways? We had a really wide ranging series of conversations today. What would be your takeaways for what we talked about today? What would you say would be the most important information for the older female endurance athlete?

Mikki Williden (44:02)

Protein is key, absolutely. And if you have no idea how much protein you're eating, that's an easy enough thing to figure out

writing down what you eat, by jumping on a food app like Chronometer and actually putting it in and actually getting a really good, getting an idea of that. And also I have to say that if anyone's out there and they're like suffering from many of the things that we're,

just that we're talking about and they think they need to change their diet, but they're not sure how to change it. First, get a gauge on what you're actually doing because you might think you need to up the protein, but actually you might be lacking in other

So get a gauge on what you're actually doing.

Order regulation, what Paul said it really well earlier, like listening to your body, like listening to the things that it's telling you because it's not, because that's your, that's your best gauge on whether what you're doing is working for you. And, and don't just listen to what you should or shouldn't be doing based on what social media gurus tell you. And instead, you know,

figure out what's going on for yourself. Yeah, I think those are, and diet quality. I think that's the last thing I really wanna say is, you know, it is really important. you for people who tolerate vegetables on it, we haven't even really discussed fiber. And it's not even about fiber, it's about the phytochemicals that good quality produce can provide that you're not gonna get if you're not

your diet, not thinking in advance about.

about what you're doing, because a good diet doesn't happen by accident. You know, really do have to think about it. So that's really key as well.

Paul Warloski (45:45)

Well, that is all for this week and thank you so much for listening. Join us next week on the Athletes Compass podcast. Ask your training questions in the comments or on our social media. And if you've enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to give us a five -star review for more information on how to schedule a consultation with Paul, Marjaana, or myself, or with Mikki. Check the links in the show notes.

Mikki Williden (45:46)

one.

Paul Warloski (46:10)

Mikki Willidon, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your presence. From Marjaana Rakai, Dr. Paul Laursen I am Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass Podcast.