Training Order Myths: Does Workout Sequence Really Matter?

if you go for a long ride and you make this concoction of 600 grams of carbs in the bottle and you keep sipping it every 10 minutes, you got your priorities wrong.

if you think that sugar is going to keep you going, it's not.

Like you can't

pouring that gasoline on the fire and think that

can keep riding like that. You're going to

do some harm to your health.

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. Today we are answering listener questions. So today we have one from our help desk from Fly'em Safe. I hope that's a pilot. Does work out order matter within triathlon training? For instance, if the app schedules app being Athletica,

schedules a swim and bike workout for the same day, but I can't start with the swim in the morning. Can I switch the order? Does that affect the effectiveness of the training? Let's start with that.

me, would come down to what gets done is the most important. So if I can't swim in the morning, then I would definitely bike first and then do the swim after and not worry about it.

Yeah.

100%. That is exactly the answer. You're splitting hairs with this at the end of the day, but does it matter? Well, it can a little bit, right? And we had the Magnus Ditlev podcast with Peter Christensen, myself on the Training Science podcast. they were talking about the, when they were doing these simulations to set the world record, they were talking about the importance of making sure that

when they were going to simulate the bike that had to be done, they wanted to have a really hard swim beforehand, right? Because they knew that it did affect the bike and same with the run, right? So yes, all these things kind of affect the other in your day, but the key, when it comes down to the big rocks, it's what Marjaana just addressed, like get the work done any way you can to start off your, yeah, in your day, right? So just.

Yeah, take a look at your schedule. Take a look at your life schedule. Take a look at what Athletica has lined up for you. How can you slot that into the life schedule and then try to execute accordingly? And there's lots of different ways you can kind of get around that, right? Do you have a morning swim? Do you have an afternoon swim? Can you do a trainer workout or a treadmill workout in the morning or whatever? Just get the work done in accordance with your schedule. It should be kind of the first thing that's on your mind.

And if that's not possible, again, don't sweat it. You could move things around. You could take little bits off the workout. think that question's coming out a little bit later and whatnot. We'll come back to this, I'll just say. But yeah, try to get as much of the workout and the key sets, key parts of the workout's done first.

I would, I was just thinking I would emphasize getting swim and then immediately after bike done closer to your race. If you're a new beginner, having quite done, you know, swim bikes runs yet, because sometimes when you swim and then you get on a bike, you can feel a little doozy. So I would definitely practice that closer to your race day.

Hmm.

But if you've done several swim bike runs, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Do you think it matters to do run then bike? just because that's the way you've got time scheduled, even though it's not the order in which the race happens.

Nope, not from a training standpoint. Like again, the key principle first of all is just to get how can you get that total work done like that, those prescribed sessions done, right? Because whenever you look at a training program, you're looking at pieces of the overall performance that you want to prepare for, right? So you don't, if you're going to, you don't want to miss those preparation moments. So

However you can kind of mangle things. Is mangle the right word? Probably not. You know, adjust various different things to get the work done is sort of the key element. And I'll just add that context always rules over content, we always say. So think about, you know, what is my situation? You you guys mentioned

Am I a not so great swimmer and I really need to work on getting in the pool and getting time in the pool just in order to actually get through the race, right? That could be your context where you're doing your first triathlon ever and you're worried about getting through a sprint distance, 750 meters swim, right? You might really want to prioritize that sort of situation. Conversely, you're an established swimmer and you don't have that much time. Well, we know that

what, you know, just look at any of these events, these races, these triathlon races, if that's what we're going for. And we know that, you know, the bike makes up generally 50%. The run makes up a lot and it's right at the end too. So in the low time, situation there, you might really want to focus on quality sets for the, for the bike and the run, which are, you know, the bulk of the, of the triathlon. It just always, always depend.

depends on your contexts. And people hate this, but we so often say it, you do have to, you got to make some of these, your own decisions these days. So, let's say this guy, you're trying, it comes back to at the end of the day, you have to make some of these decisions yourself. You can't always trust the AI to know absolute everything, at least not yet. We're working on it, but you know, got to take hold of some,

Yeah, yeah.

some responsibility and then let Athletica help be sort of your guide towards that.

How do you view strength training and the swimming bike run? I mean, in what order should those appear? That was another part of Climbsafe's question.

Yeah, it's a good one, but it's just the same answer really. How can you get that in? Fortunately, it's probably the one that if you've got a little bit of a small home setup, it's one that you can manipulate and sorry, put in almost anywhere, which is kind cool. You got 15 minutes available before dinner, after dinner, early in the morning.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

just after your run, I mean, there's so many ways you can kind of squeak 15 minutes in. And we put in, at least in the Athletica sessions, we make these, the strength and conditioning sessions, all kind of home-based stuff. Ideal if you can get into a gym, but there's so many of these things you can just use in the comfort of your own home by manipulating a few little areas, right? Like the steps or whatever on your...

to help you with some of the leg work. You can do your own upper body and core work. yeah, lots of ways to squeeze that one in. Just get the work done.

And oftentimes pools also have gyms, so you can hit the two at the same time, swim and then strength train. Which begs the question, which one comes first? If you have availability for gym at the same facility, do you do swim first or strength first? And I would say whatever is the most important session comes first.

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And keep in mind always one is going to act as a primer for the other one. When I reflect on my daughter's swimming, they often do a dry land training before they do their actual swim workout. So there might be something there too, right? With that dry land workout, it almost primes you for the swim itself.

Yeah. And again, remember we're not trying to kill ourselves in any of these sorts of workouts, right? You're trying to almost, yeah, you're trying, it's like, remember the most important session is the next session. So, but it's still, you still want to hit and target some of these, these different modes of exercise because those are what we know gives you the, you know, just kind of the signal to adapt.

That's key.

Dig in deeper into your neuromuscular system and its capacity.

Alright, question two. Marjaana do you want to take it?

I will take that. What about handling missed workouts? What's the best approach if I can't complete a workout on the scheduled day? Should I delete, move it to another day or let the program mark it as missed?

Yeah, and that's the beauty of Athletica is that all options are valid, that all options you mentioned there are valid. So there's no right or wrong answer to this. What works well with you? If you're so busy, you can't even afford to look at the Athletica calendar, then you can just let it go. And the AI knows that you haven't done anything on that day, unless there's some sort of wearable.

issue. Or if you are a little bit like me and a little bit OCD with things and you like things neat and tidy, I'm there's none of you listening that are like that.

We want to see all green.

I have a feeling that there's a lot

of those guys.

Then, right, then you might want to delete the session or move it too. Like this is, know, to the point of the question, you could potentially move this one into a place where it does make sense in your daily availability calendar, right? So then moving it is usually a great option. Do be careful about moving, you know, run like, you know,

two runs too close to one another, right? Or two of the same exercises too close to one another relative to your ability because you don't have one day where you've got eight exercises. That's obviously not gonna work very well for you, right? And hopefully, Athletica will give you a few warning signs on that one, which it does. So yeah, be intelligent with these moves, but moving is a great option as well.

laughing because I'm laughing because I've done the move quite often. I move okay I have a lot more time during the weekend I'll just do like double runs and then there's like you've seen I've been there on my plan moving things around but

Yeah, well yeah, you're

a busy mom with three kids, right? So you got a lot of things to juggle, right? You got baseball diamonds to go to, basketball practices, all these school runs and these sorts of things. And you are, yeah, you're forever trying to fit the family in with your workouts.

Yes, but sometimes they don't happen or that I find that I have 20 minutes around baseball fields. So I've been running like a crazy person around baseball diamond for like 20 minutes, 30 minutes. And it was not on the plan, but I felt great because I got it done. yeah, so it doesn't always look pretty on my training diary. Definitely not all greens all the time.

Yes.

That's great. It's good that you admit that. Yeah. But it's okay. you, but I love, I mean, you're the classic Athletica user, right? Time crunched. And how can I be smart about getting in these sorts of sessions, right? Even if I look a little bit different than the, that are kind of in the baseball, you know, realm, right? Like I'm imagining that's a bit of a different culture than...

And it's okay. Yeah.

You don't see like there's not 20 of you running around the baseball diamond doing your fitness program, Marjaana?

You

There is only one me running around. I can tell you, maybe sometimes a little kid comes to me and talks to me like, Hey, what are you doing? like, just doing my hill sprints here.

Hahaha!

So

should people be mindful if they move workouts, should they be mindful of what they get done in that workout in terms of, should they reduce the volume? Should they change anything in terms of simply the context of their day and the workload, the work time that they have available?

Well, it's interesting, Paul, and it's a really good point you bring up because when those sessions get moved and you apply, you allow athletic, athletic as brain, the backend of, of athletic, uh, time to consider those adaptive workouts, you'll notice that, um, oftentimes they'll change because that, you know, it's recognizing you've put a whole bunch of.

training load or stress on that certain day. So those will sometimes automatically adapt in accordance with what athletic is seeing. So that's kind of cool and a good thing to sort of pay attention to. there's this, again, there's this balance sort of system that's, or process that's going on between the practicality of getting the session done, like we're saying, which would be optimal, the load or stress that's on you.

which Athletica is always kind of keeping an eye on for you too. sort of what's practical at the end of the day. it's like, yeah, and this is one of the things we've been talking about this actually, and in a bunch of different threads in Athletica. And I think we're gonna work on it, but we want to, for the user in the future, identify what are really the key sets.

And I often take it for granted that everyone just knows what the key sets are, right? It's obviously, it's the VO2 workouts, it's the strength endurance workouts, it's the speed workout. What's that? Race pace, exactly, right? These are the key workouts. Everyone knows what this but not everyone does. And so we need to potentially make this a little bit better.

Raise pace. Raise pace.

from our user interface standpoint, highlighting these, putting the word key in or coloring them somehow, we don't know. But again, kind of to this point, this is like, if we only have a certain amount of time in our week, and we've got all these sessions that we kind of want to get done if we can, but what's the big rock at the end of the day, right? What's sort of the 80-20 rule? for...

preparation of a race on D-Day, it's the key workout. And so if you can just get a good chunk of the key workout done and the key parts of the key workout, you're probably hitting that nail in your program appropriately for your context. So we wanna try to, that's again another bit of a work on that you should be seeing coming in the near future, athletic listeners.

Key workout could also be aerobic workout.

you

It could, it could, right?

If that's really what is lacking, right? Yeah.

Well, yeah,

and depends on what phase you are in. So it's not an easy fix because if you're on a base season, aerobic sessions are the key workouts. But if you're somebody who, I want to sign up for athletic cal tri Austin race coming up in, you know, I have three months, you're already in a build phase. So maybe.

Thank

You know, key

workout is still an aerobic workout depending on where you at on your journey and your fitness journey. So it's really hard to like give an, you know, cutthroat answer to what are the key workouts. Right. And it also like, I think a lot of people wonder how to move workouts. Can I have

heat session on Wednesday and another heat session on Thursday, or should I split them further apart? And I think as much as some people hate when we say you need to trust your gut feeling, it is a learning progress. You have to learn how often can you do a hard session? And I would say that strength endurance session is a hard session because

you

it creates a neuromuscular fatigue that it's a little bit harder to shed. So if you have a hard session Tuesday and then a VO2 max session on Wednesday and then another hard session Thursday, it's three days of fatiguing sessions. Maybe it's better to split those up a little bit. Maybe you're fine with it. So it totally depends on the person. Right?

you

Yeah.

And this is, again, sorry to keep saying it, but we're probably never going to stop. It's context over content, right? Everyone has their own context. And it's why we feel that, why we put such a huge emphasis on trying to educate the user, right? And you're going to see that right through to the AI coach. So the AI coach, literally this release just happened. We've made the AI coach more prominent as of today.

Thanks.

where it's right there and it's open on any of the charts, right? Whether it's your heart rate variability, recovery profile, whether it's your power profile, pace profile, and even on the session analysis itself, click on that coach avatar that you'll have. It'll either be your own coach or it'll be the male or the female avatar that's within Athletica. And there's insight there that you should

you should definitely read and consider. And we're trying to continue to educate you about your own context and how things are sort of going. And that's gonna just continue to get better day by day. yeah, but it's a really good point, Marjaana. Yeah, take the time, experiment yourself and continue to learn.

And it just keeps getting better the farther you go.

That was another question from Fly M Safe. We have a question from Ride Green 78. Ride Green asks this, when do you start introducing sugar on zone two rides? If the ride is shorter than two hours, I won't use any fueling. If I'm going longer than two hours, I definitely feel like I need the fuel for long zone two rides. First of all, Ride Green.

refer back to the episode we just did about fueling for long intensity rides and races, but you ask a really good question about timing. When should we be taking on carbohydrates during a long workout?

Well, let's start with Marjaana

I don't take sugar at all.

Well, this is that was going to be my answer. I was going say, none, you don't take sugar. Let's like use

some sort of a whole food type of product, right? Like to give you energy, right? So we did this, Paul, you'll probably know the episode, but we talked a little bit about the recent, you know, Philip Prin's study that really showed how little carbohydrate you need

Mm-hmm.

to maintain performance, right? And this is really, strong evidence that you just need to maintain a stable blood glucose. And if your blood glucose level isn't falling and you're becoming hypoglycemic, then you just need a small bit of, doesn't, I just, don't like to use the word sugar because we know that sugar is a little bit of a toxin ultimately at the end of the day. And I know that.

maybe a like, whoa, kind of comment for some, but we know that now. It's just not kind of put out there as much. But choose a natural sugar. So carbohydrates obviously get broken down into simple sugars that are, you know, glucose, fructose, and galactose. And those are like, those are the key. Sorry, what did I say? Glucose? no, fructose. Yeah.

Yeah, glucose, fructose, galactose. Yeah, those are the three simple sugars. That's right, it's been a while. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, fruit sugar. yeah, those are the ones. And yeah, that's the breakdown at the end of the day. so yeah, any of those are sort of valid carbohydrates, but.

through disc collectors.

Don't forget also we got this liver that's working hard to always maintain that blood glucose level as well, right? So this is why like Marjaana, she's kind of, she's gone through this adaptation phase where her body produces enough of its own sugar through protein and, and, through amino acids and, fatty acids to be able to kind of control that blood sugar. So she doesn't feel that, that lull as much.

But if she does, she can always meet it with something that's, you you could use an apple or banana or whatever. It doesn't really matter. The print study showed that, you know, as small as 10 grams in an hour was needed just to maintain that and maintain performance in well-trained triathletes. That was pretty cool. So you're sort of the same. Now, if you're starting to feel that bonk, well, that's, yeah, you're clearly hypoglycemic. And remember, that's a problem because the

The brain only runs on glucose initially, but it can adapt to use ketones, which is the breakdown, which are broken down by the liver or fatty acids get broken down by the liver to form ketones ultimately at the end of the day. And these ketones are like glucose and that they can pass the blood brain barrier and they form an alternate energy source. And of course in

places like starvation, they can wind up actually being the predominant energy source for the brain, which is kind of cool. So, I guess it's a long answer, but both Marjaana and I kind of is like, we wouldn't go to sugar ever in that, right? I wouldn't say ever, but I guess in a race, you got gels on the course, you could potentially.

Mm-hmm.

go

to that. I know the two of us, we're not putting gels in our back pockets, We're trying to get things that are more natural because we know that the body runs better on them.

Yeah, so I would carry a trail mix. there is a little like there's fats, there's a little bit proteins, and then there's a little bit carbs, like if you have dried fruits in there. So you get that heat of carbohydrate a little bit, and then half a banana is like 10 grams of carbs, you know. But apple,

Perfect.

an apple.

You don't want to be hungry. So if you feel like you're hungry, you know, carry a bar like Lara bars are pretty good. They're not like super dry. So they are easy to digest while you're running or riding. Or make your own. Yeah. I think you mentioned them to me. You taught me that. So, but not sugar. Like on the race situation, yes, I might carry some candy.

Yep.

Yeah, I don't mind the Lara bars too.

Yeah.

I'm talking about Ironman distance, so it's a long race. And on the run it will be Coke and oranges. Coke and oranges, Coke and oranges.

Mm-hmm.

But

that's different. think like the race day itself is, I think it's different. Like, you I know that there's a big push to train how you're going to race and there's something there, I guess, but I want to, again, still with the concept that the next session is the most important session. I don't want to have too much sugar myself on

on training sessions. I mean, maybe there's a few. And again, back to the Magnus podcast, maybe this is totally wrong, because Magnus was saying, they totally simulate and this guy's the best in the world. But we're talking also about the everyday athlete, right? So back to context, who are we speaking to, right? What is Ride Green 78 all about?

Thank you.

You know, what, what is, I don't know, ride green

Yeah.

78, right? But if he's an older athlete, 78 is probably his, is probably his birth year. Right. Exactly. So if he's same age as you MJ, he's probably in our situation where, you know, becoming a little bit more resistant to carbohydrates and possibly wants to, you know, become a little bit more fat adapted and then lower that, that, that amount of.

Yeah, go 78!

know, sugar and stuff that hits the body. But if you're like Magnus, who's, you know, I don't know, he's 22, 23, he's totally probably capable of handling all of that. I certainly was, at least I thought I was. So there's, again, to the context, unfortunately. It's not a one size fits all.

you

Mm Yeah, so

you're talking about training the gut to, you know, being able to digest all that 100 grams, 120 grams of carbs, but I would like...

I don't know.

Yeah, again, that's a whole can of worms. We've talked about it before in other podcasts. I don't really buy it. And I've never, I haven't seen evidence that you can actually train that and it get, that maybe you can, right? You can train just about anything, but it's like, you know, all of the tracer data basically that I've seen shows that you're not oxidizing it and it's just kind of spilling out there and then your body immune system's got to do the

Yeah.

all the work to kind of clean it all up. That's all I've seen. I haven't seen this adaptation thing where you're all of a sudden, you know, because you've trained the gut, you can actually burn more from a tracer standpoint, right? And when I say tracer, the tracer data is like the act, like this is the real gold standard of metabolism kind of research. So in terms of their, actually like, they're labeling these with radioactive tracers and they're actually able to see

Mm-hmm.

using the tracer on how much is actually burned by the muscle cells in the mitochondria. So, Paul, I can see you want to say something here.

No, yes, because that's the pro peloton in cycling is they're working on 120 to 140 grams an hour.

I know. Yeah. So dude, I might be totally out to lunch in here, but I just, I just, and because that's what they're doing, right? So,

Yeah, but

B E

Yeah.

But I mean, I think of a couple, people we had on the podcast.

my gosh, I've lost his name, Svein Tufts friend. But basically he was talking about how he, Christian Meyer, there we are. Christian Meyer was interviewed on the podcast. This is the guy that went, he basically spent think at least 10 years with Svein writing for like Orica Green Edge. Mark Quad was his coach slash physiologist.

And then he was with Inigo Sanmilan as well, right? And Inigo Sanmilan is the coach slash physiologist that pushes a lot of this stuff. And Christian said on the podcast, you can go back and listen to this, but he basically said that, look, I did feel like I was getting something there, like that performance, but it came at a cost. really, I did not feel good. I didn't sleep good.

Mm-hmm.

It wasn't sort of a sustainable practice for me. And it was really awful existence is what he said. And he had to, he talks about it. He found like a middle way point with what the nutritionist from the team was feeding them. And then he would supplement all of that with like an avocado, et cetera. He had to all of a sudden find his own way to get enough fatty acids in his

I think what's important to remember about the fact that the pro cyclists are taking in 120 is that A, they are pro cyclists. They are already incredibly efficient machines at burning fats and carbohydrates. so they are not everyday athletes like us. There's no evidence as you're saying to suggest that we need to take in, that we can use that much carbohydrate per hour.

Hmm.

That's the most important point right there, Paul. You said it. That should be on the highlight reel because that is it. We are not riding eight hours a day in training, Like the Pro Peloton does, right? So back to the base, they're always getting that base. just these absolute metabolic machines and they have huge fat oxidation rates because of that. And they're buffering that or supplementing that with their

Yeah, and...

Mm-hmm.

They're high carbohydrate kind of dosage. So yeah, super good point, Paul.

and everybody can kind of make their own experiment. Just try 120 grams of gels and see how you feel afterwards. mean, come on, are you burping? You must be feeling like puking. I remember when I was trying to fuel myself as much as I could with everything I could find, I had like a headache and even some weird symptoms like...

Yeah, that's.

I couldn't see properly and like, it was like the curtain was closing. And then seriously, I was just on the couch after I couldn't do anything. I was just pooped after five hour ride. And now I can just do whatever I want, going baseball fields and play basketball with the kids after. So there's that.

Hahaha!

Yeah. So

did we ask, so have we really addressed Ride Green 78's question here?

No, we went on a date.

We've gone

everywhere. When do you start introducing sugar on zone two rides? And basically at MJ's and I's never, but it's like the, at the end of the day, ride green 78 is you want to basically, you don't want your blood sugar level to fall too low or you don't want to. So whatever it takes, we, we, so we're recommending that that sugar that you're talking about being some form of a natural sugar. We've given you some examples.

We said never.

and.

And basically you want to keep pushing that level out farther and farther so that you, it's, you know, the next time it's maybe two hours and 15 minutes where you have to take on that natural sugar. Maybe the next time after that, it's two hours and 30 minutes and on and on it goes, right? You progress these sessions as best you can. And if you can do that, it's very good evidence that you're improving your base level, your base level of fat oxidation, which you want to get up as high as

as possible. All these elites that we've talked about, have extremely high levels of base. Their fat metabolism, they can run on that all day long. And they demonstrate that too, right? Because they can, many of these at the top of their game can do eight hour rides fasted. And we're talking, they'll just ride at 200 watts for like, for all day long, for eight hours. It's incredible. And completely, that's just on water.

I'm gonna throw this one in here because it's maybe appropriate, but if you go for a long ride and you make this concoction of 600 grams of carbs in the bottle and you keep sipping it every 10 minutes, you got your priorities wrong.

You

Ooh, hot take, here

we go.

But seriously, like if you think that sugar is going to keep you going, it's not. Like you can't keep like pouring that gasoline on the fire and think that you like you can't, you can keep riding like that. You're going to do some harm to your health.

Yeah.

Nah.

power, let's do one more question. It's power pedals from Kim Campbell, one of our Athletica ambassadors. She's wondering if power pedals are worth investing in for outdoor riding. I know she's riding with the power bike inside, but she hasn't used them for...

outdoor training. So do the pedals teach you not to go so hard up hills or push too hard at the start of a long distance race?

Yeah, they can be really useful for that, right? So I'm imagining she might have the Garmin pedals. Who else makes a power pedal, Paul?

huge.

Anyways, would say, you know, they're great. Like they all have their different type, like all power meters have their different levels of validity, accuracy, and reliability. And usually there is a price that's attached to it. But I would just say like, you know, something is usually better than nothing.

Yes, they're excellent for pacing yourself as you're suggesting. You might get a little bit more out of that hill by not going right to the well from the beginning. If you know you're gonna be out there for little bit of time, you might be able to pace yourself better and have an overall better response. And there's like all of these tools that we have, there is this learning curve that comes from having this new tool.

you

you're paying attention to it. And that's really what all these wearables are about. They're about, and, and Athletica in general too. It's about teaching us, about the process of training. So it's a great investment, I think personally on your, your whole exercise training health process.

100%. You know, if you, if, if it's, if it's a financial question, mean, they are absolutely worth your, your money in terms of the data that you get out of it. And for a coach, if you have that to kind of monitor your progress, monitor your, your performance chart. And, I think they're, they're definitely helpful.

Yeah, and you can get them used to.

Yes.

Let's buy less gels and get yourself power pedals.

Okay, there you go,

Thanks for exploring the path to peak performance with us today on the Athletes Compass podcast. When you subscribe, you'll ensure that you're always tuned in for our next journey into endurance mindset and performance. And when you share this episode with a friend, teammate or a coach, you'll be helping them discover new ways to level up their training and life. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. For more information or to schedule a consultation with Paul,

Marjaana or me check the links in the show notes for Marjaana Raki and dr Paul Larson I'm Paul or law ski and this has been the athletes compass podcast. Thank you so much for listening.