How to Train Smarter with VO2 Max Insights

So many people think that knowing your VO2 max is just for elite athletes. I why does it matter for the everyday endurance athlete?

Well, we're no different than the elite athlete, ultimately. I think that's why. And even if we go to the back of the pack, we're still having competitions with ourselves,

just our own personal development. We want to be as good as we can be.

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast, where we navigate training, fitness, and health for everyday athletes. VO2 max is an important metric for endurance athletes, but what is it? And does it matter to everyday endurance athletes, whether it's high or low? Today, we're beginning a series of Athletes Compass podcasts about VO2 max, what it is, why it matters, how to improve it, and what we can do with the numbers.

We're going to start to talk today about the accuracy of testing and how best to get a relatively accurate measurement. For example, my Garmin says my VO2 max is 44. Testing on a metabolic cart at Marquette University says 41.5 and WK05, the number I like best is 51. So Paul, can you break down what VO2 max actually is and how it relates to endurance performance? I know that's like a thesis question that's very broad, but we'll...

testing on a metabolic cart at Marquette University says 41.5 and WK05, the number I like best is 51.

What can you tell us about it?

Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's, it's a hot topic. And, um, just to get to kick right off VO2 max is defined as your maximal oxygen uptake. That's what the word VO2 max is, is kind of like the, abbreviation for, and you're looking at the volume of oxygen that you can uptake from the environment. Um, you know, take into your lungs, transport that oxygen through the blood via the heart. That's the, you know, the big pumping action.

to the body's cells and specifically within the context of exercise, we're talking about the muscle cells themselves, right? And then we see the, know, that goes through the capillaries, the capillarization around those muscle fibers, and then the mitochondria, the cells powerhouses, they're uptaking that oxygen and they're converting the food stuffs that we've taken in.

into energy that we transmit from the chemical energy that we break down in those mitochondria to the mechanical energy and the movement and those muscle cells shorten and that moves the levers ultimately of the body. We look at that holistically using various different

you know, pieces of equipment. And now these are even actually, you know, we can do these in the field now with items like VO2 Master, which is incredible, right? Where you're actually getting insight into VO2 Max whilst you exercise. can actually do these like, you can do this yourself while you're running or while you're cycling or rowing. Even swimming at the end of the pool kind of thing, you can get an insight into your VO2 Max. And yeah, and ultimately what...

winds up happening and why this is such a hot topic. And really, you know, we have to thank Peter Attia and his, his outlive book, really, he kind of, you know, his best selling outlive book, where he really, shows that, you know, if there's one key marker that you want to pay attention to and maintain throughout your lifespan to, you know, improve your chances of, of living, not just long, but also

healthy and functional, health span ultimately calls it, that's VO2 max, right? VO2 max correlates well with your functional movements, your abilities, and of course in the context of Athletica, often is our performance. And it's only, I should say though, it's only one marker of probably two or three or four actually now that are key

indicators of your overall performance. But it's often thought to be the most important one. So how's that for a start?

you

So it's the capacity of your body to utilize the oxygen and turn that oxygen eventually into energy.

Correct, yeah. And think about it, it's very similar to if you enjoy a nice open fire. It's really no different. And I do this because I love my sauna, and I often think about this actually, because I go into my sauna and I put my fuel into the sauna fire, and that's my wood and my kindling and all that. And then I have to provide a...

you know, a heat element. then I've, but if I, if I don't have the oxygen level sort of set, the air level set, then that, that flame is not going to, going to burn and oxidize. And it's really not too much different, right? Like the more, the more I can open up the, the air vent in my sauna, you know, fire, the hotter that sauna is going to heat up for me and the cold of, of Revelstoke winter, that's really important, right? So

Hmm.

So it's, we're really no different, right? Like the more we can oxidize with oxygen, that fuel that we've taken in, that we've eaten, know, our fats, carbohydrates and proteins, the hotter that flame is gonna burn and the more chemical energy it's going to transmit into the mechanical energy.

So many people think that knowing your VO2 max is just for elite athletes. I why does it matter for the everyday endurance athlete?

Well, we're no different than the elite athlete, ultimately. I think that's why. And even if we go to the back of the pack, we're still having competitions with ourselves, with our age group competitors. And just our own personal development. We want to be as good as we can be. That's all that really matters at the end of the day to everyone listening. It's like, how good can I be? How can I be the best?

version of myself. So that's why it matters. And I want to live long, I want to live well, I want to be functionally competent. I don't want to fatigue, I don't want to tire, I want to recover quickly. All of these things relate to your VO2 max. So it makes a lot of sense to pay attention to it.

So you recently discussed the limiters of VO2 max on your training science podcast. Could you give us a brief rundown of what prevents us from having a higher VO2 max?

Yeah. Yeah. Great podcast with Elias from, think, think it was the, was it, it was the Finnish, the hell, yeah, it was in Helsinki. He was coming to me from, right, Marjaana And, so it was, yeah, super, super cool. And that's ultimately what he studies. So he works, he has very similar to what I did when I was in New Zealand, where he has this hybrid role of both a researcher, and also

someone that's working directly at the coalface with the best athletes that are in the Finnish system. So what he was really focusing on with that was all the various different limiters. So it was the perfect podcast really to kind of do to break down this topic. And ultimately there are four key areas in your physiology that

can be a limiter to the VO2 max. So that's often what he does when he takes, obviously it's just one variable and there's many, but often what he does is he takes these athletes into the lab, he assesses them for their VO2 max, and he starts doing these, pulling the various different levers to figure out, well, where is the limiter in this athlete, right? And the big rock limiters are, first of all, it can be your lungs, it can be how well you can ventilate your lungs.

Number two, could be a, you know, a blood, an oxygen carrying capacity issue within the bloodstream itself. Number two. And number three, could be the size of your heart. It could be the function of the heart, the strength of the heart, the ability of the heart to pump that blood with high pressure to the rest of the body, right? Your overall blood pressure. And so we're talking stroke volume, cardiac output.

And then thirdly is like a peripheral factor as well, right? Actually taking up that oxygen. it a peripheral issue? Is it something to do with the capillarization or the mitochondrial density? Is that the final limiter? So whenever we are considering ourselves, we might also want to consider where we might be limited in terms of our VO2 max.

And it will always be one of those various different areas in all of us, right? It's gonna be something that is the limiter. Traditionally in exercise science, it's always thought that it's been the heart. Like that's really usually the very first place that is the central limiter. It's your stroke volume or your cardiac output, right? And that's not the heart rate. The heart rate is kind of genetic.

And this is an important point for all, you know, athletic listeners that are interested in their heart rate and how it relates to maybe to others. Never look at it how it relates to others. You've got your own sort of parameters, which is, and these align with your zones, but those zones are going to be specific to you. So if you're out running or cycling with a friend, it really doesn't matter that they're at whatever and you're at whatever.

it's yours, yours is specific sort of to you. so, yeah, and that's why we, you you always sort of do like a percentage of that, that value, but nevertheless, the stroke volume, how much blood is pumped in every beat of that heart rate. That's the key factor that's going to kind of be, be going back to delivering what we call the cardiac output. And that's the amount of blood that you can deliver, around the body in one.

in one minute, right? And this can be up to 40 liters a minute, say, like that was Lance Armstrong's, was suggested cardiac output was like 40 liters a minute, right? Which is huge. And if you ever actually look at what 40 liters of blood a minute is, imagine 41 liter, know, cartons of milk that you're actually like pouring in a minute. That's a lot of milk, right?

So just try and kind of put this volume in your head, just to imagine what the power of that heart muscle to be actually able to deliver at VO2 max. Imagine 40 liters. The majority of us that are probably listening to this podcast, we're more around that 25 liters a minute. That's typically what we're, us mere mortal athletes, good athletes are. And then it'll go lower and lower from that.

you know, as we become more sedentary. And that cardiac output directly relates to your VO2 max. It's almost like, you know, it tends to be more of a one-to-one relationship, right? So the 40 litre a minute cardiac output in Lance Armstrong is going to relate to his 85 to 90, you know, VO2 max score, right? Or name your famous athlete, Christian Blummetfeld, et cetera, right?

Yeah, the higher the cardiac output generally, the higher the VO2 max. So that's the big one. That's sort of the first big rock.

Now, partly VO2 max is determined based on your mom and dad, right? Like around 50%. Kids choose your parents wisely. But how much improvement can anyone expect? Like now we're talking a small fire people like us, not the elite athletes, but how much...

Correct.

Is it realistic to say a 30 year old who hasn't yet hit perimenopause or midlife or beyond? How much can they expect to improve their VO2 max?

You know, who knows MJ, honestly, it's like Andy is a, yeah, Andy Bucher our, you know, Athletica ambassador is the classic example where I think he started training when he was like, you know, just, just training, just going out when he was like age 24, 25. So, you know, he tells the story. He was just, you know,

You

Wow, okay.

Joe Schmo, like you and me, and had no idea he had the capacity that he did, right? And, you know, so fast forward 15 years, 15, 20 years, the last time that Andy did a test of his VO2 max, I recall, I think he was, his score was 88, right? So he just, so you just never know actually, like what you're sitting on. Yes, it is genetic, but you might be sort of sitting there. It's not like,

Yeah.

It's not like you know you're sitting on an 88 potential until you actually go and do the work, because he had no idea.

Do we naturally select, and here we become like the natural selection dilemma, right? Do we select, like people who have naturally high VO2 max or capacity, do they select endurance sports more because they like it, because they feel good at doing it or, you know.

Yeah,

I think they do. Because, and again, I'm only guessing this, but I'm watching my daughter, you know, go through her life. And I try not to be too much of you know, a pushy father or anything. But I'm watching her, you know, just naturally explore life, meet different friends. And, know, PE is a great one where she all of a sudden finds herself with at the front of the class doing the beep test or doing running.

Mm-hmm.

and

initially thinking that she couldn't run or whatnot. And she's only been a of a swimmer. So she's just sort of naturally discovering what she tends to be good at. And now she's made some friends with another young gal who's also got the endurance gene, it would seem as well, and they bike. now they went for a 5K run the other day and she's 14.

I can see here sort of just naturally sort of gravitating to these sorts of things. So I think that's how life happens, that we tend to discover accidentally what we tend to be good at, probably at some time in childhood. And then we go those directions because it feels good to be doing the things that we tend to be good at. yeah, that's my guess. And it could happen a million different ways, right? A million different random ways.

Hmm.

we, think we really nailed down the heart and the cardiac output and its linear relationship with VO2 max. It's, and it's the number one factor, right? That's kind of where we left off. And then MJ tangent to us a little bit, which is cool. So it's all about, right. But, but yeah, so I think like number two is usually they say it's the periphery. So it's like your, it's your mitochondria.

But I will say also, so if I can geek out a little bit more, the reason why we know that the heart tends to be number one is that they've done these studies where they've delivered all of a sudden more oxygen to the periphery and it has taken it up. So that's kind of a cool thing. So if you can find a way to deliver more oxygen to your muscles and...

that it tends to eat those up. And that's why also, that's why blood doping, they know it works too, right? Because it's like all of a sudden you're enhancing the delivery of that oxygen via the blood mechanism. But like all of a sudden you know that your VO2 max is gonna increase because you've delivered more oxygen and the muscle cells sort of bring those, will uptake those.

So maybe that's kind of hand in hand. Maybe it kind of goes heart, blood, because I've just proven that to myself, and then through those studies. And then it's the periphery also, right? So it's also the mitochondrial density. So how dense can you make the cells in your muscles laden with mitochondria so that they are converting lots of that?

that chemical energy into mechanical energy. And of course, that's through your training. Well, all of this is through your training, but those are sort of the big ones there. And then last but not least, but still important, are the lungs. If you can ventilate your lungs more with these various different devices, Breatheway, Better, GoTo02, anything that you can do to strengthen the actual respiratory muscles.

to ventilate the lungs more, that also has been shown to increase, enhance the uptake of the, or like the ventilation of the blood. So the saturation of the blood, right? You wanna saturate that with oxygen. And that's like one of the things if you've...

If go to the doctor, say for example, they'll put like a little SAO2 pulse oximeter on your ear or they'll put it on your finger and they're actually looking at how saturated your blood is with oxygen. And so what you're doing with these, the respiratory training devices is that you're actually enhancing the rest, the ventilation of the lungs themselves so that there's enhanced perfusion.

of the bloodstream and a better, you're keeping your saturation higher. Actually, even our watches have these on them as well. I find it fascinating if you've got like a, say for example, like a Garmin 945 or higher, there's actually this little marker on there and it says like, it usually says 150 and it's the week and it's because it's like,

you're supposed to get 150 minutes of vigorous exercise per week. And so sometimes I'm not sure, like I get this usually very early in the week, because of what I just, how I roll, it's basically it's looking at having that saturation quite low for various different times in your week. And I actually, I get them often during MJ's...

velocity workout, I'll actually get this little alarm on my watch because sometimes I'll have a different garment on but like my watch all of sudden starts singing on my wrist because it's like you've been at 150 minutes of high intensity work. So yeah, that's the whole concept of

Let's talk about the inevitable decrease in VO2 max.

Yeah

why? Why do we see the number go down?

Yeah, that's a great question, right? So I, and I'm, I 100 % know this and being in exercise science my whole life. I've watched my VA2 max go from a young 20 something year old at 73 was the highest I had. And I've watched it coming down now to probably around 54. So, you know, it definitely goes down and that's

Holy crap.

Yeah, and they tend to say that it will go down one milliliter per kilogram minute per year. And I'm not too far off that. So I would have been 20, maybe 22 when I had 21, 22 when I had my 73 score. And now I am 54. So that's, I don't know, I'm holding it up there, right? So training can hold it up there. I'm sort of, yeah, not too bad when you do the math, right? So that's...

Yeah, you're doing good.

That's kind of cool because that's something that we can all take. I'm an N of one, but nevertheless, we do know that when we train, we can hold off the Grim Reaper ultimately, right? That's what I'm trying to do. And that's what you, listener should be trying to do as well. So yeah, how can you, what are the ways that, I think, remember when we did the New Year's resolution talk, guys, we were,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So those are sort of the key things that I'll be sort of focusing on and to try to get that, hold that score.

So how do you know what your score is? you relying on the Garmin number? Are you getting lab tests? mean, talk about testing and accuracy.

and strength.

Yeah, a little bit of both. So I am looking at from a daily standpoint, I am using the Garmin device. So, and that's only going to have so much accuracy, of course, but it's nevertheless, it's in me and there's some sort of an algorithm where they're looking at the power output relative to my heart rate in any, you in various circumstances. And I'm in a...

And you, the listener, might be in a similar situation where you've got your key places that you'll ride or run. And it winds up being almost a little bit like your own controlled laboratory. So when I get into my rhythm, I'm just going to be continuing to do my Mount Revelstoke hill, do my hill repeats right there. And as long as I keep the batteries up to snuff in my power meter and my heart rate monitor.

I should be getting sort of a good look. And all of a sudden, if my power is marginally better and my heart rate tends to be lower, and these are for long periods of time, there's good suggestion that's because I'm burning my logs a little bit hotter, right? So that's...

Yeah, there's a reason why. Of course there's anomalies, but usually it's not going to lie, especially with repeated exposures, and that's sort of what I found. And then I also get these tested as well through metabolic carts. got some contacts and whatnot. So I'm sure I will get it verified at least one time in the summertime too. And then VO2 masters, these are getting more and more...

you know, economical, affordable, think they're, know, in around the 5K price point. And you might find a coach or other that has these, and then you can get an even more accurate indicator of this number, if that matters to you, right? But at the end of the day, I think, you know, the performance is gonna be the key thing. And also your power profile, your power and pace profile on Athletica, that's not gonna lie to you too much either, right? So.

Mm.

if you're consistent with your measuring.

Yeah, do we want to talk about the VO2 max as your maximal aerobic capacity and then your ability to change your performance at VO2 max? you know, there's so much we can do to maximize VO2 max, but there are a lot of things that we can do to perform better at VO2 max, right?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think of, you know, you might, you might kind of wonder, well, what do I have at my disposal in Athletica that could give an indication of where my Via2Max might sit? And what we look at is your, ultimately your zone five. So check out the power and pace at your zone five in Athletica. Also look at your power and pace profiles.

and ultimately your five-minute maximal mean power or maximal mean pace. So just hover over top of what that sits, almost sort of from the two to five-minute range. That's generally where your zone five will land. That's what our algorithms are doing. They're looking at maximal mean powers and paces in that range. And that's a great surrogate.

for your VO2 max. And it's a functional measure too, right? Just like FTP is a functional measure, your five minute MMP, maximal mean power, maximal mean pace is also a functional measure. That's what you're doing in that all out in that two to five minute kind of period. And that's very strongly related to what your VO2 max is. Those with a higher VO2 max are gonna have a higher two to five minute

max mean power, max mean pace. yeah, that's the, did I answer the question?

Well, yeah, in context of athletic, you can kind of, you can say, you can look at where you see that and how that changes over time. How often, I see often questions about, my via 2 max was this three years ago or two years ago and athletes say, these are my zones.

But how often did you ever see repeated VO2 max test and how much of a variation would there be within a short timeframe?

Within a short time frame, know, sharpening or, you know, when you hit your build phase and you start training more vigorously, increasing that 150-minute duration we were speaking about before, you know, you, we really do see all of a sudden quite a sharp rise over, you know, anywhere from an 8 to 12-week period, right? And that's why your build phases are typically...

typically on there. So yeah, you can definitely see an increase of, I'm sure, 5%, depending on who you are and where you're sitting, right? Context for everything. But this is why you generally want the longer base period, because the base period, we know now that builds up your ability to oxidize fat as a fuel.

And again, when we go back to, we've spoken about this before, but the Ingval Odin study showed that the athletes that were adapting to their VO2 max training were the ones that were training more in zone one, right? She showed a significantly higher zone one training in the group that adapted versus those that don't. that's why we do the base period, right? Like this is actually like building up

your body's ability to adapt. If you don't have that, you're going to have a lot harder of a time to actually increase that number. So now all of a sudden that 5 % increase that we might have expected, well, that might not happen anymore. And then she showed that because the other group didn't adapt, right? They just held their VO2 max and they weren't doing the zone one training. So you've got to, you kind of got to have this balance. If you're a balanced athlete,

Mm-hmm.

In terms of your training, if your training is holistic, you've got your zone one, two training, easy stuff, polarized, and you got your hard training, you're going to kind of adapt in that period. So that's the trick. And it's hard for many of us to kind of get our head around that because often the zone one, two training, well, it takes time. And a lot of us are, we're time poor. So, but that's what we need to work towards building the time we can.

we can find to do that type of training and kill two birds with one stone if we can at that time, listen to an important podcast, do some consults on the phone while you're doing that. know MJ is an expert at doing all this sort of stuff. She's doing 20 things at once. But yeah, I'm all over the shop, but that's really important, I think, that holistic.

Please, sometimes.

training approach in order to adapt your VIA 2 Max.

Again, real life experience last year, I did that massive training block and I didn't really see like, I always look at my watch to see what my VO2 max is, but it wasn't before after when I had, you know, kind of like a recovery block after the worlds that I saw it go up and up and up. And I'm like, what is happening? And then

started to like put one and two together, it was the volume that I did earlier. So sometimes I feel like long, long build phases. It doesn't happen if I don't have that base before that.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, that was wild. that was such a, I mean, we're all N of one experiments, but that your N of one experiment MJ was fantastic in that regard where, yeah, we saw the increase in Vio2 max in you when you were doing your 30 thirties. Like, I mean, you were off the chart relative to the past, right? Like it was, it was super cool. And, and that only happened after you sort of let

Mm-hmm.

It was, yeah. Yeah.

you know, slowed down in the training, but then just added the intensity and it went crazy high. So, I mean, you must've been, I don't know what, 10%. It was huge. Like it was a really big increase in the raw power that you were doing repeatedly for your 30 30s, right? There's a classic indicator of your, yeah, your performance capacity.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yep. Next time I do Ironman, I'll do things a little bit differently, but that brings me to a point that if you're someone who's just started training and you don't know your VO2 max or that you know it and you're kind of devastated how low it is because it's not...

you

80s or 70s, even for women, because women have a little bit lower VO2 max than men. There's hope. And following a smart training plan without overcooking yourself really can do wonders. So there is hope for everyone who don't have huge VO2 max.

yeah.

Oh yeah, for sure. No, we again, go back to Andy. Like, you know, he did not know that he had the ability to, um, to do what he, what he did. Right. So, um, yeah. And this, this is, for those that don't know Andy Boucher is, uh, you know, um, multi Ironman 70.3 winner and, uh, in the male division. And, um, and yeah, and he didn't, he entered the sport when he was in his early twenties and then, you know, exited the sport when he's in his mid forties.

20 year career, but again, had no idea that genetically that was what he was capable of, but then caught the love for it and went on to do it. So if you're just starting out, the key is just to enjoy it and be patient and just see what you can do this year or see what you can do this month, see what you can do next week.

Right? Like just don't look to comparison. What's the adage? Envy is the thief of joy. So don't look to others and whatnot what they're doing. don't just focus on you and love yourself and see what you can do and to make the, get the most out of you. That's all that matters.

So Marjaana and Paul, what are your final thoughts about measuring VO2 max? I Paul, you just kind of gave a really good synopsis of everything. Do you want to add anything else?

Well, there's, mean, this is a pretty big area, right? So I think I've only, you know, despite the fact that I've gone ad long among various, various different topics, there's still so many different areas that I could still, could have still gone into, right? Like all the different ways that we can enhance that VO2 max. I we didn't really talk about, we've talked about it before, but the poor man's altitude, right? Is the heat training.

So don't forget, we spoke about this before and I ask if you're interested in that to review that podcast because in it, we talk about how when you use heat training, you actually enhance your plasma and blood volume, right? Now that is one of the four areas that we wanted to work on to enhance our VO2 max, right? So if you enhance your blood volume, making more red blood cells,

then that's you know, it's poor man's doping ultimately, right? And legal. So this is another way that you're to be able to deliver more oxygen to the bloodstream. So that's probably an important thing to mention.

And I think the other important point that I hope I emphasized as well was really the balance of your, like the holistic aspect of your training is just so vital. And that is really like the zone one, zone two training. Like that is the secret sauce. That is the juice that is gonna cause you to adapt. So there's no point in doing all this hard work in velocity and with your hit sessions.

without actually having that base to be able to adapt it, or it's just gonna, you're not gonna get anywhere with it. So I think those are the big rocks that I sort of see. hopefully that answers a few listener questions and people that are curious about working on their VO2 max to enhance their performance and longevity or wellness.

on each of those limiters and what we can do specifically to improve our VO2 max with each limiter. So MJ, what's your final thought? Yeah.

Strength training.

Surprise. No, I mean, like, yes, so we have, we might have a roof for VO2 max at some point, but how effectively can we move our bodies towards that max strength training? I am a huge fan of strength training. I think that's often missed piece in endurance sports.

Because powerful muscles make you push more power. Strong muscles make you push more power or pace. in a running perspective, you're more poppy. So strength training, especially like if you've never done before, you might find some extra gains.

doing specific strength training there.

Yeah, I love that addition, MJ. There's that neuro or recruitment aspect that is probably there, right? I don't know if it's hard to find a study that's actually shown that, but my intuition says that that's an important aspect as well, because yeah, you can't recruit that large muscle group, you're not going to be able to...

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

get to those higher levels of power and pace. So yeah, nice addition.

Thanks for exploring the path to peak performance with us today on the Athletes Compass podcast. When you subscribe to the podcast, you'll ensure you're always tuned in for our next journey into endurance mindset and performance. And when you share this episode with a friend, teammate or coach, you'll be helping them discover new ways to level up their training and life. Take a moment right now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together.

For more information or to schedule a consultation with Paul, Marjaana or me, check the links in the show notes. For Marjaana Rakai and Dr. Paul Laursen, I'm Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.