Mastering VO2 Max Intervals: Listener Q&A Session

like, if you're tired, you lower the intensity and

pay attention to recovery and sleep and good nutrition.

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. We're finishing our series on VO2 max with listener questions and we've been getting some really good questions on the Athletica forum as well as on our social media for the Athletes Compass podcast. So please keep those questions coming people. The first question from the forum comes from C. Gamiel who asks,

Should you be going all out on each interval or leave a little in the tank? I'm going to assume we're talking 30 30s. Related, what are the differences in adaptation and stress between the two highest zones, zone six and seven?

All out for the duration of interval. So if you're referring to 30 30s, then you are going all out each interval, which is 30 seconds. It's different from going all out for 10 seconds. And it's different from going all out for one minute. You know, those power outputs will differ.

substantially, like you can't do the same all out 10 seconds versus one minute.

Yeah, so maybe it kind of depends what we're talking about, like all out, right? So if we actually go all out, that means sprinting, right? Like everything to the floor. And if you're gonna do that over 30 seconds, well, we actually have that in the exercise physiology, exercise sciences. It's called a Wingate. So all out in a Wingate test is everything you got right from the get-go, and you're not even supposed to pace it. You're supposed to do all you can.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ and then fatigue across that. So that is not how we want to do these 30-30s, because if you do that in your 30-30s, you're not gonna be around for the end, right? So there is definitely a pacing element, right? And that's kinda why we almost have the difference between zone six and zone seven. I think zone seven is more towards the all out, whilst the zone six is more around the...

the pacing element that you probably want to hold for these 30 30s. So yeah, you want to be, yeah, that would be my two cents on that one, MJ.

Yeah, I wouldn't, somebody wise has here has taught me that don't look too much of the power, like your power target and like know where your target is in the ballpark, but be willing to go over if you have a good day.

just.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is why we do our, and this is the beauty of the Velocity system, actually. This is why we do ⁓ our workouts on Velocity in an open fashion, not erg. And we get a lot of comments about this on the forum where things feel like they're just a little bit off or whatnot. And that's because in the power context, we often get these prescribed with this

precision of your power. And ultimately the brain, the body, the mind, it just doesn't work that way. Some days you're on fire and we're just really able to kind of push that power out there. But other days you're feeling a little bit flat kind of thing. When you do these open, it doesn't matter. You can just be how you ever, the body wants to be on that day. And that's probably ideal for adaptation.

So that's to me best practice. So get away as best you can from doing your workouts in erg mode. Try to do them more open where you're actually making targets. You're actually looking at the power output. I did a strength endurance session today with MJ and that was perfect for me. I was right and I was trying to do my low cadence work in my zone between zone 3A and 3B.

And I was just visualizing that power grinding away. yeah, I kind of drifted in and out of 3A and 3B. a little bit of drift is just fine. It's like, that's good enough. Remember that perfect is the enemy of great, right? So that's definitely good enough. And ⁓ it's the same sort of thing for the 30-30. So when you're trying to pace these and

.

Remember that the ideal, I guess, signal or stimulus is if you're still getting that same hit towards the end of your 30-30s as you are in the very beginning. So make that a little bit of a game for yourself. Look at what's in front of you. Think, okay, is that appropriate first and foremost, right? Because we do get some odd prescriptions sometimes. So make sure that, you know, do a double check with your mind. You know, am I prepared for that? Have I done similar in the past where the progression is just nice?

⁓ And you can just kind of, we often do this in our velocity session, we count back the actual number of 30 second reps that we're going to do kind of as a group. we all get our head around that. And as a group, we might talk amongst one another to say when we're going to pull back and say, ⁓ I'm only going for two sets today, or maybe two and a half sets. That'll be enough for me because I sort of know my rep progression, right?

⁓ That's really, I think, important to do. But regardless of who you are and where you're sort of at, you want to try to pace similar in that very first 30 seconds to towards the same, towards the end. And remember, we're always leaving like we could have done one or two more at the end. And yeah, again, remembering that the most important session is the next session.

think it's also important to hit that consistency in the 30 seconds so that you're not starting off really fast like you would in that wind gate and then dying off. You're being as relatively consistent, you know, eight and a half, nine on the RPE scale. ⁓ That's where you want to get.

Yeah. And I think MJ also made a really good point in terms of like, use your mind to try to find out where you are. And she does this fun little trick on velocity where she blinds us sometimes. So we'll actually like all of a sudden for the first 20 seconds of the 30 second effort, we won't actually have any feedback. the, is scary for all of us, but it's super fun too, right? And it's like, the goal there is to

really dial into the mind. And they're gameified too, right? You get points if you hit it. So it's like everyone's sort of motivated to do that. But yeah, it's really cool how that blinding. And then the visual feedback comes back within the last 10 seconds and then you can see where you're at. I just love that. I love how you do that, MJ.

Thank you. And it's so much fun for me because I see everybody is like crashing it. they are, their power output is lot higher than when they actually see the visual feedback. So no one wants to lose their points. And sometimes I think it's a little bit of a self doubt, you know, it's because you're doing the whole set blinded. So you don't know.

Yeah.

because no one wants to lose their points.

You

But I see that people push a lot more, not just a little bit, but a lot more when they're blinded. And that tells me that maybe there's a lost connection between how it actually feels and what they think they can do. So the mind-body connection is a little bit, they have a little bit of a self-doubt there. So it's really fun for me to watch that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm, you know, you'd say I'm pretty experienced with that, but I do, I have the exact same behavior, don't I? Like you, you know, you as the lead coach would see that I'm no different than anyone else on that too. So I've got the same problem.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

So a second question. Phil on the forum asks, my Tuesday VO2 max sessions are usually 30 30s with the focus on hilly cross country mountain biking event, I think. Are these the best versus for example, five time five minutes or 40 20s and so on. And how would we know whether to mix it up using the workout wizard or stay the course by doing the 30 30s? I love this question.

country mountain biking I'm guessing.

It's a great question. Yeah. And again, kudos to the whole development team who's built our amazing workout wizard, you, you know, the, whether we have the various different changes based on context, that's really what it kind of comes down to. That's why that, that tool is there for all of us because the answer, Phil, is going to depend on the day and where we're sort of sitting on the day. Like,

You would do a 30-30, that's why it's kind of our stock standard ones, because it's right in the middle road in terms of the stress that that's going to create. Keeping stress at bay, that's why we do the 30 seconds ⁓ afterwards as well, right? Like that 30 second pause, remember, is where it keeps lactate at bay. When we keep lactate at bay, we lower the sympathetic fight or flight.

response to that, right? And we can pick back up and do another session again tomorrow. If you go and do your 40-20, Phil, like you're suggesting there, there's going to be a whole lot more lactate that's involved and less recovery, right? You'd be amazed. MJ does this. She's done this before, a little bit of tests with a group where she changes to those 40-20s. And it really changes the game. Just that extra 10 seconds, MJ?

Mm-hmm.

And

so you're going to have much higher lactate response to that one. Yeah. A lot more high intensity work in that zone six usually. And that could be really of benefit as well for peaking time. So if you're in the build phase, Phil, where you're getting close towards the, you know, the pointy end where you've got a race with your cross country mountain bike, then could be good to have some of those in there.

But just don't forget the most important thing is picking back up and keeping the consistency around there. great on the specificity, which you'll probably, you you'll experience in that race. But just make sure you're going to be able to kind of get through that as well. So yeah, I don't know if that's, you want to add anything, guys?

Traditionally, triathletes especially want to do the five by five minutes.

Yeah, well, five by five minutes, these are now we're moving from short intervals to long intervals. Now we're talking in the individual factors, diesel engines versus the twitchies. I guess that is back the, you know, the 30, 30s are often perfect for the hybrid kind of athlete or the more, you know, which most of us are. In other words, you have a blend of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers.

but there are certainly are like a lot of endurance athletes. They gravitate to being endurance athletes because they are naturally diesel engines. They've got lots of slow twitch muscle fibers, in which case the five on five off is, ⁓ is a great, a great one for them too. ⁓ so yeah, you can, ⁓ you know, if that feels right for you, go for that. But, ⁓ I'm curious to, you know, Paul is a very experienced cycling coach and I'm curious.

to get his take on this question.

Yeah, actually, you know, I'm going to pick up on something that you were saying earlier, Paul, about the specificity of the event. And I think, you know, it depends on what, you know, Phil, what kind of course, if it's a hilly course and then they're long courses, you know, long hills, that might be an occasion where 40-20s come into play because it's a 40 second climb. And so the specificity of the event, the closer that you get to the event is

you know, how I might change those up depending on who the person is and what, what kind of race they're facing.

that's a really good point couldn't agree more

So good. When I did my cross country ski race, there was lots of smaller hills, but it just lasted forever, like 54k's. was short hills and I was so grateful to have done 30 30s for so long. It felt like I was doing 30 30s all day long.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I can actually, I mean, it's the same thing. Like I can, actually reflecting back to, you know, meetings in the triathlon New Zealand, you know, room for the Rio Olympics, right? And we had a number of athletes that were qualified there. And we analyzed that course, was quite a hilly course in Rio. And, ⁓ you know, we knew exactly the types of powers that were gonna be required through those and the durations on those powers. So, you know,

just like Paul's saying, do a really good analysis on the needs of that course. ⁓ you know, there is some, make sure that the, use the workout wizard to arrive at some level of specificity, especially as you're getting, you know, towards the point again, probably talking about more like in the last three, four weeks within that time, that's when you really want to sort of make those sessions a little bit more specific.

to the demands that you are going to face.

We get to geek out on this next question a little bit. Giuseppe85 on the forum asks, if VO2 max and long aerobic zone two run bike workouts activate the same AMPK cellular signals? If we're tired during a period, changing the type of training from VO2 max to long run would have the same gains, at least at the muscular level. There's a lot in this question to geek out on.

You know what, I stayed away from the AMPK signaling stuff in the last episode that we did on the peripheral stuff. This is where it comes in, right? So just to back the truck up ⁓ again, you can review the last episode that we had when we talked about the peripheral adaptations that occur at the muscular level. We're talking about making more mitochondria. Well, what Giuseppe is referring to here with the AMPK

that is the signal molecule that actually is signal and telling the muscle to make more mitochondria. So, you know, we're really kind of getting down to the granular level here, Giuseppe. And I think it's probably, you know, I don't think it's the, we don't really know. We don't really know if the signal is gonna be that much different when we talk about a bike versus changing to a run. ⁓

We don't really know if the signal is going to be that much different when we talk about a bike versus changing to a run.

And it probably will be similar. The biggest thing when we change from a ⁓ run to a bike is, or a bike to a run, either or, is we're bringing in, this is ⁓ classic hit science, we're bringing in a ⁓ neuromuscular stimulus relative to ⁓ something

And, you know, it probably will be similar. The biggest thing when we change from a run to a bike is more like a run. Or we're bringing in, this is classic in science, we're bringing in a neuromuscular stimulus relative to...

that, less of a neuromuscular stimulus. Neuromuscular stimulus when you run, because running is a,

You know, it's an eccentric contraction. We use the stretch shortening cycle. ⁓ And there's less of the concentric work that happens that we see within the cycling ⁓ exercise mode. So for argument's sakes, probably similar. And I would really just think about the neuromuscular load. ⁓ Are you sore? If you're sore and you think that running is going to make you even more sore,

then switch that up to a bike. That's one of the greatest ⁓ switch ups you can kind of do. Cycling, sometimes rowing as well, sometimes swimming. These are all ⁓ lower aerobic stimulus, ⁓ but without the neuromuscular impact that we have in running. You need to protect the neuromuscular stimulus in your running because you can get too much of a good thing and you ⁓ can break down accordingly.

So ⁓ yeah, I think that should address that there. Anything to add, guys?

just staring at what he says. If we are tired. I'm like, if you're tired, you lower the intensity and pay attention to recovery and sleep and good nutrition.

Yes, very good point. And you could also do the ⁓ bike session as well if you just want to do like a recovery session and get a aerobic stimulus. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Back to the big rocks, right?

swimly.

Back to the boring big rocks. Like forget about the 1%. No, but if you're tired, is it because you've been training so hard and maybe you need a rest day? Maybe kids were up, dog was up, you were up. And welcome to my life. What do you do? Like you lower the intensity, do some soulful.

Hmm

Welcome to MJ's Life.

movement, yoga. ⁓ Make sure that you get enough protein. Like if you have muscle soreness that lasts forever, that could be indicated you're not getting enough protein. But yeah, chill. Chill.

Chill, man.

Alright, next question. Kimber and J.H. Buchholz on the forum asked similar questions about hill repeats while running. Here is Buchholz question. For the running 30-30s, when picking out terrain, what is the most important aspect to consider? Is it that the interval be performed on a hill?

Yeah, let's do it.

as is suggested in the workout, is it that the rest period be limited to 30 seconds? Is it something else such as consistency, all intervals on similar terrain instead of a mix? What are the trade-offs of doing 30 second intervals with 45 seconds rest to ensure the intervals are uphill versus keeping the rest at 30 seconds and perhaps performing up to half of the intervals on flat terrain?

Yeah, lots there, lots there. And it's sort of, you know, we've had a lot of the background info on the 30-30s already, which is great. And now we're kind of applying these in the context of running. know, often with the 30-30s for running, and I know this, it's this workout in particular, it's, you know, I know what he's talking about and they're, you know, they're to be done up a hill ideally if you have that.

in your surrounding geography. yeah, you can choose any sort of gradient that you can find from 4 % to 8%. And yet you're really trying to get a similar sort of stimulus. By running up the hill, you're limiting the demand on the hamstring muscle. If you're on the flat,

context, which is fine as well, but you have to be a little bit more careful at that higher speeds with the hamstrings. So in this context, you're really getting more of a metabolic stimulus, and you're limiting the stress on the hamstring as a result. And it winds up being almost like if you're doing this mid-run, because that's where the main set usually comes, all of a sudden you're ⁓ getting that same sort of metabolic input there.

And honestly, I would not be too concerned about the nuances of this. We're talking here, does it matter if it's going to be 45 seconds? I think we're splitting hairs, honestly. It's as close as you can get. Again, perfect is the enemy of great. ⁓ This is usually a VO2 max targeted session. So hopefully you have a situation where

you are breathing heavy. Again, review back to the VO2 Max, you know, podcasts that we've done. So there should be some good heavy breathing. The heart rate should be elevated towards 90 % of heart rate max. You know, you should be kind of getting close to critical heart rate on your, know, athletic.

athletic overview zones. And yeah, that's, yeah, but again, also as you've mentioned too, should you perform half on flat terrain? The answer is yes as well. That's great too. you're, if you're doing multiple sets of these, that could be also an appropriate ⁓ sort of training strategy. So there's no, again, we always say in,

hit science is that the context rules over the content. And here's a great question. it is like, you what is the context that you're trying to train for? So what is, and where are you sort of at with different things? Do you need to alleviate a little bit of stress from the hamstring? Do more of these uphill. ⁓ Are you, do these feel almost, does it feel almost sort of too easy on the uphill? And you really want to work on your maximal sort of speed in sort of the zone six?

and like, you you feel bulletproof down there, down low, then go for it. Then do these all sort of flat. So the context has to fit the puzzle piece of you, the listener, the athlete, when you're delivering these. The reason why the, we've already sort of spoken about the 30 on, 30 off and the fact that that rest period is going to...

lower lactate and lower... And yeah, this is where you kind of got to be careful with that 45 seconds. It almost might be not enough or might be too much time where it kind of dampens the whole uplift of the system. Like you're trying to actually do this period of time at VO2 max because we want that signal to enhance VO2 max. So yeah, keep that in mind with this workout.

I remember doing this one myself and I wouldn't kind of run right back down to the start. My hill is usually long enough where I can kind of keep going back. So I would only run back like half as far as I would kind of go up kind of thing. yeah, just, but you know, context depends.

Okay, let's talk more about this because I know a lot of people are worrying that they're not doing this right. So what I do, I have a very short hill and I get all the way to the top and a little bit on the flat, ⁓ which is great because when I started doing this ⁓ here at this hill two years ago, I just got to the top. So ⁓ I'm getting faster, which is great. I'm 47. Yay. ⁓

Yay.

but then I have the trouble getting back to the start in time. So what I do, because I'm just following from my, the workout from my watch. So what I do is I go slowly down towards, but I can make it in 30 seconds. So then I stop it, I pause it and then get down to the starting point and then I start it again. So it is a little bit longer, however,

Even if I'm not getting, I'm on a triathlon plan. So even if I'm not getting VO2 max stimuli out of it, I'm getting the neuromuscular fast twist muscle fiber stimuli out of this session, which is I take it as a older athlete. Because I know that I also have VO2 max sessions on the bike. So I'm just kind of like, it's good enough.

Perfect.

Exactly.

But if

I want to, if I would be on a running plan, I would probably do this on a treadmill, because then I can control it a lot more. I can go 30 seconds, 30 seconds. I just hop off, recover quickly, and then go again when the 30 seconds is done. So there are ways.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

that's great advice. ⁓ Just ⁓ as a reminder for me also, there's a new feature that's been released. We haven't made too much of a deal of it ⁓ anywhere, but it's on your watch. And it's basically an open warm-up feature now. you can just kind of like, if you've got a hill that you're running to, and that can take a variable amount of time now. So on your watch.

And it is a setting that you can, and I believe in Athletica you can actually get them pushed this way where you actually have that open.

open warm up. Have you used that MJ? Yeah, that's a that it should be available now to you. So you can kind of like, yeah, you you know, press start and then you know, you can actually I believe you know, hit like a like a set kind of mode and then when you're ready to kind of go for the main set and the main set kind of kicks in if this is if you're using the watch to kind of guide you in those.

No.

in those workouts in that, again, there's another context. But just like you said, don't worry about it too much as well. If you have a certain number in your head, you're going to get that. And the rest between is going to be a certain amount, no problem too. So I agree. Again, perfect is the enemy of great. So know the target, aim for that, move on.

Great.

you

Okay, so we've always been told that it's ⁓ time at VO2 max that matters like 90 % or over the max heart rate. But 30 30s, don't like your heart rate stays lower than 90%. You might hit it at the end. So I think that's what he's talking about. Like on the five minute intervals, you can get there.

Mm-hmm.

Totally, but you're probably not gonna be, again, if we think, like let's think granularly about the muscle fibers that are engaged. So in your five minute effort, like I would imagine, again, because of your, the zone that it's in, usually you're doing, let's call it zone five, which is, you know, certainly a very hard, hard zone, but there's probably, you know, some of the larger motor units are not gonna be quite as engaged as much as in those 30-30 ones, right? So.

Again, we kind of get back to this whole VO2 max ⁓ conundrum about peripheral versus central. Is it good enough? ⁓ Yeah, I mean, and then also back to the puppeteer we spoke about as well, where it's the central nervous system too. Like again, usually the five minute intervals is going to be a lot more taxing on the puppeteer, on the central nervous system.

that homunculus, they call it, the brain is going to be a lot more taxed. that's, again, remember the most important session is the next session. And so I would say that if you can still get to the next session with your five minute intervals and you're towards the pointy end and back to Paul's point, is it specific to the effort or the event that you're training for?

great, yeah, let's go for that. But I would let that kind of more dictate it as opposed to, like it's not a black or white sort of response here. Like it just, it kind of depends. Both are very good tools for the right context.

Because when you're doing 30 30s, your power output is higher than on the five minutes. So if you can keep repeating 30 30s for a while, a good block, you'll also see that your zone five will eventually, when you adapt, will also get higher.

Correct. Yep.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, I mean, and there's a really good blog that is from Rolsted's group. It's on the HIT Science website and it's basically, titled like, Go Short for Greater Bank for Buck. And it talks about this and it's in a study in, you know, well-trained cyclists. they do both, they do both exactly this. They do the five minute intervals you're talking about and they do 30-30s and they get,

Is it my turn? Okay, yeah, Kimber has an amazing question about doing 30-30s. When should you not do them? For example, when your HRV or sleep or recovery aren't good, should we still do them? Pretty sure I know the answer from our live heat sessions on velocity, but it would be nice to include some insights on when to call it and when to push it.

Yes, it is.

We enjoyed Kimber's company this morning. And yeah, Kimber, you know. So yeah, if you're a rat shit, I like to call it, then you gotta basically call it there. Really, it's like, it depends, right? It depends how bad is any of these sorts of things. You, the person ⁓ that's gonna do these things, you gotta make the call. Sometimes it's great just to show up.

You

and see how you go, right? MJ's had that experience multiple times I know where she's like, I'll just start and see and then I can call it after. And lo and behold, sometimes you feel great kind of going through. if you're like, again, I had, I was mentioned already, I needed to take a rest day ⁓ yesterday. So it's like, I just needed that and my body knew it needed that.

I think I gave similar advice to someone on the Athletica forum today as well. yeah, sometimes you got to sort of take that call. So there's no black or white response to this one. It really depends on how bad that sort of situation is. But yeah, if you need the rest, you take it and you know intuitively when you have to have it.

I hate that answer. Pippin, you know, because then you have this other person here talking to you on your shoulder. You're lazy. Are you really that tired? You're lazy. I hate that answer,

Do you?

It depends.

You want some? You want some?

Yeah.

Okay, so

when would, so give me two examples then. I agree. Give me two examples. When would you call it? When would you definitely take the day off and not show up for the 30-30? And when would you go forward?

If I'm sick and I don't have to lead a workout. ⁓

There you go.

Yeah.

What if your HRV on Athletica was like in the tank for, and the seven day rolling average was showing lower than the 60 day rolling average, and AI coach was talking to you and saying, MJ, you're not looking so good.

Well, I mean, you're right. Like intuitively, I know when a rest day is needed, but I'm committed to my group, right? So I can't always just take off when I need to. And those cases, I try to fake it, but that's even harder. But for anyone listening, let's give a better answer than that. I mean, if you're sick, you take a day off.

If you're feeling a little groggy, you can show up and spin your legs. Take the first set as a test how you're feeling. And if you're not feeling good, then you call it a day and then let it go. Just let it go.

Totally.

Exactly. And I think when also when the little man or woman inside your head aligns with some of the metrics that we take, again, if you're measuring HRV and heart rate, and, you know, again, look to the, so check out your recovery profile on Athletica. Go to charts, go to recovery profile towards the bottom, check out that, you know, check out those charts, and that's where the AI coach will be talking to you.

And AI coach analyzes that and they'll tell you sort of where you're sort of sitting in those bandwidths. And ⁓ if that assessment aligns with how you're feeling, like that's two red flags, right? So you might want to start listening to that and doing some of the self-care stuff we've sort of talked about. Paul, what do you think?

you

Yeah, I agree that, ⁓ with what Marjaana just said about the, ⁓ one set, if you're, I if you're tired and kind of feeling a little lazy, you know, try it, go for one set and, you'll know by the end of that set, whether you're, you are too tired to continue. And because there is that point at which your body just can't take on more stress and that's just not worth it for you to continue. mean, you're going to end up not necessarily.

causing injury, but you're definitely not helping yourself and you're not gaining fitness. ⁓

Bingo.

Anything else to add?

What was sometimes, context, Kimper has two or three weeks till A-Race. So she's in the middle of a build, she's built up good fatigue. And some days, this morning heat session doesn't entice her too much anymore. But if you're fatigued,

No, I think we nailed that one.

No?

Hahaha.

level is so high in your build. Maybe that one set is good, like you can show up and then just shorten it or do another, you know, move it to another day, you know. Build is tricky because you're carrying a lot of fatigue and stress and doing too much in build. Like now, the three weeks before A-Race, now the most important thing is to stay healthy.

So.

Absolutely.

So all of our questions today, we're dealing with VO2 max and we have more that we just don't have time for, but we'll get to them in a future listener question, but please keep your questions coming from the forum, from our social media and ask us, you you have access to world famous physiologists here and ask questions of this group of coaches that we can ask. What, what are you wondering about? What do you, what are your training questions?

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For more information or to schedule a consultation with Paul, Marjaana or me, check the link in the show notes. For Marjaana Rakai and Dr. Paul Laursen I am Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass podcast. Thanks for listening.