Train Your Mind Like You Train Your Body with Ashley Eckermann

I can do hard things, whether I feel like it or not. I always tell athletes you don't really want to base your performance by what kind of mood you're in that day, because like ready isn't a feeling. You do not have to feel ready to be ready. Ready is a decision. Motivation is discipline. That is a decision.

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. Every endurance athlete knows the grind, the long miles, the fatigue, the daily decisions to keep going. But what happens when your biggest limiter isn't your legs or your lungs, but your mind? In this episode, we're joined by sports psychologist, Ashley Eckermann of Maximize the Mind who helps athletes rewire how they think,

respond and recover. We'll dig into what real mental skill training looks like beyond just think positive and how to build the kind of mindset that shows up when the body starts to fade. Ashley, could you give us some kind of your background and what you're doing now?

Yeah, and thanks for having me on. I love sharing what we do. I think the hardest part about mental performance coaching, sports psychology, mental skills training, ⁓ it doesn't matter what you call it, it's just people don't know that type of coaching exists. And they're like, where have you been all my life? And I'm like, yeah, because most athletes will train physically.

And then they'll get to race day. And then we have the nerves and we have the panic, which can totally be expected. And things don't go as planned because dear God, nothing ever races according to plan or unfolds and the weather doesn't cooperate. And then we have a bad race and we're like, what happened? Why do I suck? And it has nothing to do with who you are. You didn't train the mental aspect. You didn't have the mental preparation. And I can go on and on about our school system, but like you're just not.

taught that in school. don't teach you coping skills and it's not that coaches don't want to train athletes. don't care if you're a tennis player, swimmer, runner, triathlete, baseball player. They don't have time and they're, you know, one person managing 20 people. And so a lot of coaches I didn't totally believe in the middle game in, you know, emotional control and dealing with performance anxiety and stress or how to deal with poor performances. But they

don't have the background to help athletes figure out how to deal with it. And then athletes will go, well, I'm just not a positive person, or I'm just not good at that stuff. And I'm like, okay, it's a choice. Everything's a choice, but you just didn't learn it. And you didn't really know how to navigate it. And so then we decide we're not good at something. And it's not that you're not good, you were just a beginner, and you didn't have any experience. So

That's what we do, it maximizes the mind. We just really teach athletes how to learn how to control their emotions. Cause that's not automatic as much as we would think, oh, that seems like it's easy, but we help people focus. We help people learn how to reset and just manage pressure. And most of the athletes that we work with are talented physically, but there's this like disconnect, there's this gap. So...

their practice, their training runs, their workouts are not transferring to competition. And then they're like, my gosh, what's wrong with me? And it's not a what's wrong with you. It's that you just didn't learn how to prep for race day. You didn't learn how to train and race smart. You just learned the physical aspects of, you know, long runs and tempo runs and speed work and fartlek and all the other good stuff.

because I know you're an Ironman athlete, did you have a personal experience that brought you onto this path, helping others with mental performance or what's your story? Everybody has a backstory, so I want to hear yours.

How I got into sports psychology was my dad actually played professional golf and he had major anger management issues. And he would get so frustrated because he was talented, but he would struggle making the cut and just ultimately being consistent. And so I would watch him as a kid just struggle. And the only thing I knew how to do was pray.

And I would pray that he would figure it out or that he would make the cut or that he would be able to calm down. And in the history of telling someone to calm down, I don't think anyone has actually ever calmed down, right? And for me, racing was my passion. I mean, I've always been a swimmer first. That was my main sport. And then there were no adult swim meets. So...

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or not ones that were actually fun. So then it was like, okay, well, what can I do that I could still swim? So that's where I got into doing Half Ironmans and Ironmans and ⁓ figuring out a way that I could still incorporate swimming. But okay, now you're have to learn how to ride a bike. And I don't race as much as I would like to anymore. I don't have sponsors anymore. I work all the time. But what I still think is so important about like racing is not forgetting how my athletes feel. Like, you know how like when

Parents forget what it's like to be a teenager and coaches often do that too. And I just never wanted to forget what it was like to tow the line and feel like you're gonna poop your pants and then also puke at the same time. And also question why did I sign up for this race and what was I thinking? Because I've done eight Ironmans, I don't even know how many marathons I've done and I still get nervous. But the thing is, it's like how you label that, that's not bad. I'm not like, my gosh, I have this queasy stomach.

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I think I'm gonna have a heart attack. go, yep. Okay, right on cue. And it just, I still race because it keeps me connected and it helps me know that I get where my athletes are coming from. I race to like keep testing my own tools. I just think that athletes will perform better when they're working for a coach that's not just like spouting theory, but is actually giving them lived experience. And like, I get it. I've been there. I know what actually works. And I also think it's really important to

evolve as you race. So I think so many of us get into it as competitors to like chase a PR and see if we can be faster and see if we can run a new distance that we've never run before because we like challenges. I've had so many surgeries, I've had so many injuries. I am not chasing speed anymore. As much as I would love it. I've had multiple doctors tell me you should even be running at all anymore. And I'm like, no, that doesn't really work for me. Thanks for that suggestion. But I think you've got to find different things that push you.

you

lol

Yeah.

And I realized

I'm totally going off on a tangent, like racing now for me is about staying mentally sharp so that I can give feedback to athletes and I don't forget what they feel like. And I have so many friends that don't race anymore because they're like, well, I'm not fast anymore. I'm like, okay, well please race for a different reason. I think you can constantly change what makes a race successful. It doesn't only have to be time. Maybe it's pushing to the end. Maybe it's, you know, holding a certain pace or

or whatever, but, I also use it as excuses to travel everywhere. I'm like, hey, there's this race and we should fly there. Let's do that, a race-cation. My husband's like, again, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be so fun. But I just think the main reason is you gotta make sure that you know what people are experiencing and you're not guessing. And think a lot of people, you know, kind of sit at the ivory tower and they're like, well, this textbook says you should do this. And it's like, yeah, but that's not real life.

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And if you're not taking from real life, then you're not gonna get the athlete to trust you. And I just think that there's a huge problem in our industry overall with that. And so that's why I still race. That's why I do things that hurt my body and make you take a week to recover afterwards.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, makes you feel alive.

Nice.

That's nice, Ashley. And we're very aligned with respect to that philosophy that we learn best by doing. people can relate to us best when we're doing that. So when people come to you, what is the key issue? Our target market within ⁓ Athletica is endurance sports, running, cycling, triathlon, rowing. So these types of athletes, what is their most common ⁓

Why do these athletes come to you? What's their common complaint?

So I will tell you something that I get all the time. People love to spend money on their kids because every parent also thinks their kid is the next Olympian in D1 scholarship material. And as we age, we don't spend money on ourselves as often. And we'll sign up for races, then we'll buy 1,700 pairs of shoes and say, like, these have 300 miles on them, so I need a new pair now. But ⁓ we can warriors or just...

people that are racing as we age will really hesitate to feel like almost like they deserve to have different training. We'll pay for like the running plan. We'll go get in a run group, but they struggle sometimes taking that extra leap of like, I deserve to know what I can do. I want to see how much I'm holding back. So I just want to say if that is you and you're like, but I feel guilty. Like,

I'm not saying you've got to blow your budget on it, but like you've got to kind of, if you're going to do a hobby, be passionate about it. Don't half ass it. just, you know, find out what you can do because it always amazes me. Athletes that come to me that are 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, I've got 70 year old ultra runners as well. But they're like, they have to justify why it's okay to do it. And I'm like,

Don't you want to see what you can do? And don't you want to know if you can go beyond maybe what you thought was possible? And they're always amazed at the results. And I'm not talking about, you know, getting maybe impressive times. If you're listening to this on audio, I totally just pulled out air quotes. But like, I'm talking about improvement for them, right? And again, I want to go back to it doesn't always have to be like, what is a good time? It's like, what is better for you?

Yeah.

and beyond your limit. So the thing that a lot of endurance athletes really struggle with is pushing through pain because the body is never gonna like pain obviously, it's a skillset and you can learn how to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And there's drills and there's exercises that we put athletes through. So we're not just lecturing them like you need to focus on your effort, not the outcome. That's ridiculous advice.

And there's just things that you've read in books and heard on YouTube and whatever. But like, how do I actually do that? Like, that's kind of where I take pride in a lot of what I do, because we're teaching you how to develop that skill, not just, I'm not good at pushing through pain. And I'm not talking injury, like, don't be dumb. But I'm talking about just discomfort and thinking you need to walk more than you really probably need to walk. And by the way, I'm a fan of walk, run. So that is not a dig at walking.

If you walk, you can actually run faster afterwards. So that's a whole nother conversation, but like learning how to recognize when you're being super hard on yourself. And I think you can absolutely be very, very competitive and then give yourself compassion, give yourself grace and learning when you got to recognize like the inner critic and the negativity and just second guessing. Like we just don't think we can do as much as we really can.

And then some of them are like, you know, throwing up before races. have a lot of performance anxiety. They need to learn how to, you know, settle the acid in their stomach and the nerves and stuff like that. But I think the main thing for endurance athletes are just holding back and just really hesitating. then I'll say with triathletes, there's a lot of fear around like open water. And some of that could be rooted in some accident when they were a kid or something they got, you know, spooked at, scared about.

But things like that, or getting hit by a car as a cyclist, I've been hit. I've been hit in middle of an Ironman. And if I had stopped to really think about what happened to me, I would not have gotten back up. But I was like, it was my first one. And I was like, oh, hell no, you're not taking this away from me. I am finishing that today. And I just got on the bike and, you know, like without even thinking about it. And there was a policeman waving in the background. He's like, stop, stop. Like, I'm sure there was like protocol where they wanted it like.

Thank you.

concussion check me or something. And I was like, you're not taking this away from me. I'm finishing. had 10 miles left on the bike and I was so stiff, hurt like hell the next day. And obviously you always hurt like hell after an Ironman, but like it was so bad because I guarantee you I shouldn't have gotten back on, but I didn't want to have time to think about it. So like stuff like that. And if you've never processed, know, ⁓ bad races or just events that have happened, they will stay with you and then they will haunt you. And then we don't really realize.

where that comes from. So all of that can be reprogrammed, all of that can be rewired, but you've got to have the right tools to do it.

Ashley, you describe your work as mental performance rather than motivation. What's the difference between the two and why does that distinction matter for athletes who want to improve?

Okay, don't get mad at me. I think motivation is crap. And I think that because we are so reliant upon that as a human race, we are like, I need to feel motivated to lace up my shoes and get out the door. And something that athletes will tell me is, I'm just really struggling with motivation to do my workout. And I'll be like, well then why are you doing the workout? because I'm supposed to run a marathon. I signed up for a marathon. Did you want to sign up for it?

No, I'm supposed to. Hmm. Okay. I think we're searching for something that doesn't exist. Motivation is a feeling and mental performance coaching is a skill set. And again, I use the work I do interchangeably. So sometimes I'll say sports psychology. Sometimes I'll say mental skills training. Sometimes I'll call it mental conditioning. The reason I do that is because the older generation and just like really how most of us grew up.

Hmm.

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we'll refer to it as sports psychology, but athletes that are younger don't like the word psychology because it makes them feel crazy. More air quotes if you're not watching the video. And the thing is they just don't like that because it kind of signifies like a weakness. And it's like, not, it's really just your competitive edge. Again, it's a skillset. You can develop these skills. We're not all automatically born with them. And if I tie back to motivation, we all look like we want that.

But feelings are ultimately unreliable, y'all. You cannot depend on them at mile 18 in a marathon when your quads are on fire. I cannot go, ooh, this doesn't feel good. Really? No shit. Motivation gets just like way too much credit. And people wait to feel ready. Like, I gotta feel ready to go to my workout. I gotta feel ready when I tow the line. No, you are never gonna feel ready to do something hard. That is it. Like, yes, it's that simple. In every race that I have towed the line, I have never thought,

my God, I feel awesome. I feel so prepared right now. I mean, like, I couldn't do anything else because what does the brain do? The brain automatically goes to why you're not ready. It always goes to lack. That's literally biology. And it's scanning for why you're not prepared. So if I don't recognize that, then I'm going to go, ⁓ my gosh, I'm not ready. I'm in trouble. But that's normal.

So I really think it's important to teach athletes to focus on ability, not their feeling. So I'm not saying escape the feeling, like, let's talk about ability in running, your stride, your posture, how you're tilting, your arm swing, okay, not crossing it in front of you and staying in your shoulder line and things like that. You may not do that when you're tired, I am well aware, but you do know how to do it. But the brain doesn't really know how to manage nerves.

It doesn't know how to get rid of the queasy stomach. And so if we focus on feeling, then we're like, my gosh, I can't handle this. And your brain always thinks you're like trying to escape it, which actually makes it worse. And so then if I'm looking for motivation, I'm always looking for a feeling that is unreliable. And honestly, motivation will fade the second things don't go as planned. Mental performance is kind of like what keeps you going when your plan blows up because dear Lord, it will.

No race ever goes exactly how you imagined it, right? And here's the super cool part that a lot of people don't know. Okay, seriously, if you're doing anything multitasking right now, tune in. Emotions move through the body, like feelings move through the body in 90 seconds. And people go, no, that's bullshit. I've been mad longer than that. I've been embarrassed longer than that. And I'm like, okay, you probably have, but you have.

because you kept feeding it. You kept telling 10 other people what that person said to you to piss you off or how bad your race was. And when you kept talking about it, you replayed it. And then your brain kept refiring that feeling. So now it becomes your mood. So you're right. It probably has affected you longer, but humans don't freeze in time. So it really will come in and something will make you mad. And then it goes out. And that's really, really cool knowledge.

Because once you understand that, you're not trying to be like, my God, I wish I didn't feel so much pressure. Why do I put all this pressure on myself? Why do I keep signing up for these races? You just have to let it pass. You just have to sit with the discomfort for a minute. I didn't say you had to like it. I am not about being fake. But it doesn't mean that you can't handle it. And then your body actually automatically resets because the coolest thing about the human body is it does know what to do. It will take care of you. But most of us get in our own way and we're like, ⁓

and

Mm-hmm.

I can't handle this. my God, this feels awful. You're doing a marathon. It probably hurts. And so you just don't want to assign meaning to every symptom that you have. If that kind of makes sense, it's like you're going to have the, you know, things where you second guess. But to me, like the difference between middle performance coaching and, just motivation is like, you know, you got this versus like,

Mm-hmm.

Okay, I can do hard things, whether I feel like it or not. I always tell athletes you don't really want to base your performance by what kind of mood you're in that day, because like ready isn't a feeling. You do not have to feel ready to be ready. Ready is a decision. Motivation is discipline. That is a decision. Okay, I'm going to step off the soap box now. Sorry, I just, get excited about that one.

that it.

I love it.

Yeah,

that was powerful.

I especially love the 90 second one.

science and whatnot. I've heard that before too, right? Yeah.

What, didn't make

it up? Yeah!

No, yeah, it's a default mode network. I'm not sure if you've heard that, right? And it's basically like that in our brain, right? That area in the brain just kind of keeps cycling around, cycling around, right? And that, and it's related to so many different things like anxiety and depression and whatnot. But just like you said, like it's an, it's because it just kind of keeps circling around and you need something to break that circuit ultimately. And there's lots of different things from meditation to, you know, floating to

Yeah, probably exercise is probably a lot of why a lot of us go to exercise because we can get out of that that loop ⁓ that's triggering those emotions that you said. But yeah, I think I think that's just so important for us to just grasp and realize, OK, I can get out of this stinky mood or stinky feeling or the stinky anxiety that's really messing with me.

So true. And

I'm going to tell you, and I didn't mean to cut you off. just, I get excited if you can't tell I'm kind of passionate about what I do. But like you talked about a lot of us will do this for our outlet. That is why I still do it now. I'm literally doing it for a stress reliever. And it's like my time to think and my time to get away from reality. But the thing is a lot of athletes will be like, but I have to go this time, but I have to hold this pace.

No, it's done.

but I missed my workout last Monday and I can't get behind and I've got this race coming up. And then it's like, okay, well, why are we doing this now? And then it's no longer your outlet. It is your source of stress. And so you've got to recognize like what your reasons are and everybody's reasons are different. But if I don't have my reasons, then it's very hard. let me say it's just very common to get caught up in.

what other people are doing and then comparison mode. And you were mentioning like, know, meditation and floating and like, yes, you can use visualization. There's so many tools. I think the biggest thing that maybe people don't get about either working with a sports psychologist, working with a mental performance coach, because there's all different layers of training and certifications, but it's, you gotta find what modality works for you and what you are willing to do.

Cause I will have athletes to go, I'm not doing that meditation junk. And I go, okay, cool. I got other stuff. We don't have to do that. Cause I was super skeptical of that when I was younger. I would have never done that. And so I'm going to give you things that will work for you that you're actually going to do. Because if I'm just trying to do a one size fits all, what a waste. And then you're going to go, that's dumb.

Ha ha ha!

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well,

other big one is just what you're saying, like talking to someone as well, right? Because that talking ⁓ actually gets you out of that default mode network as well, too, right? So this is why, again, the value of speaking to someone that you can trust and that knows these sorts of things to reprogram your mind so that you're getting back on the pathway towards doing what it is that you want to do, which is probably perform to

to your level or whatever your goal is in that event. So super valuable.

Yeah, so true. From my own experience as a young athlete, I'll tell you a story that really bugs me to this day, like 30 years later, but I quit cross-country skiing because I hurt my SI joint. But in hindsight, I just needed somebody to talk to, really, to get out of that. It was an injury that should have ended my

skiing career, it was my head, really. But one episode, I think I was like sixth grader, like 10 years, 12 years old. And I had this wonderful PE teacher, like she's my idol still today. And like she was just amazing person who really knew me.

Yeah.

and knew how to push me, like challenge me. So she wanted me to do orienteering, like running in the forest. You know, know what orienteering is, right? So I had done that so many times at school and I felt like I could master it, but I had never done a race, orienteering race. So I said, yes, let's do it. And then I had to get on the bus with a of people that I didn't know.

go to this venue in the forest somewhere and I was so terrified that I would suck. I couldn't get out of the bus. So I pretended that my belly hurt. And I remember I was just sitting there and I felt ashamed because I couldn't get myself up from that seat and out of the bus and just do what I knew how to do. I was just so terrified. So I froze, right? And I've seen

I've seen the same thing happen with my son once and he just, he wouldn't get out of the car. He was just like, no, I can't do this. I can't do this. can't do this. So it took a while and I was trying to talk to him, got everybody else out of the car. And finally he just like, he just got up, went, did his thing and it was over.

So how do we unlock that when somebody, an athlete gets into this freeze that they just like, I can't do it, I can't do it, I can't do it. I guess was 90 seconds.

Yeah, so

I will tell you, it's so common and ⁓ we've all done it. I mean, I'm sure whoever is listening to this, when you were telling that story, they're like, yeah, I did that once in first grade. I remember that happened to me in eighth grade. And we faked a stomach ache because I don't want to go and I don't want to be the problem. I don't want to be the reason. It's got to be something that's wrong. ⁓ Because again, your ego is always trying to protect you, right? So I think the first thing I'll say is it is very real.

but it is a physiological response that our brain creates. And I think a lot of times we're trying to motivate, we're trying to help our kids or talk to ourselves. We're like, you're fine. It's okay. You have nothing to be afraid of. You have nothing to worry about. It's no big deal. And then what actually happens is we invalidate them and we make them feel very belittled because we're like, you just said I have nothing to be afraid of. And so what's...

actually happening when someone freezes is a motor skill disruption. So I'm gonna get really nerdy and technological in the science, but I think once you understand it, you will actually be able to manipulate it better. So it's like your brain's safety system. And it's like, as soon as you feel an extreme threat, the brain has one job and it's one job is to keep you safe and it doesn't want you to take risk. Well, as an athlete, you're gonna have to put yourself in situations that you've never been in before. So of course that's threatening, that's dangerous, even though

You and I know that's not real danger, but your brain is interpreting it that way. So it's like slamming on the brakes. Like you can't do this. And we see it in like gymnast that bulk. We see it in pitchers that all of a sudden they can't throw it a home plate. A diver will freeze at the end of a board. A pole vaulter can't take off. All of a sudden we'll be like, I know I want to go, but you get this physiological spike in cortisol and your amygdala, which is your fear receptor in your brain is like, nope, nope.

freeze and your prefrontal cortex, which is the part up against like your forehead, it's your decision maker. And that part of your brain is like signaling to your muscles and your motor skills, like, nope, we can't go. And so it's not stubbornness. It's not someone trying to honestly make excuses. That's just their coping mechanism. And so what happens is you actually lose the ability to fire the muscle coordination needed. And I will tell you,

a lot of athletes will tell me, I have a mental block. And most of the time it's actually, let me back up. A true mental block is from seeing somebody get hurt or like being extremely embarrassed or having some kind of trauma associated with something that you're trying to do. And your brain is not connecting the pathway that allows you to access the physical ability that you've already retained. You do know how to do it, but you can't access it. But I will tell you most blocks.

are just limiting beliefs. They're like avoidance loops. And so that comes a lot of times in endurance sports is like, I don't do well on hills, or I've never run this distance. Or I was just talking to a runner last week that he has certain miles he calls his buzzard miles, because those are just like his, you know, hell, which I get, I find it funny. And not in funny judgmental way, a funny I'm laughing with you way, of course. And things feel harder.

But it really is like a neurological disruption, but it's totally coachable. And the first thing that you would do is figure out, okay, it's not you. Your brain just thinks the situation isn't safe. So I can counteract it if I choose not to just believe everything I'm thinking. And then you basically reprogram it by recoding what memory is associated with that. What makes this so scary? What is the fear attached to?

And then we kind of go back with getting you in a neutral place. I don't need you to be first. I don't need you to be a badass. I need you to hold your rhythm up the hill. I need you to maintain this pace or something to that effect. so recognizing the trigger, excuse me, the trigger is key because something created that fear and then learning how to like downshift the body. Like I said, recode and then just kind of tying in ways to feel safe.

because that's what we're doing. We're like projecting this like fear or this potential future, but you know, we don't have a crystal ball. We're not God. We don't know what the future actually holds. And so even though it sounds so silly, the answer lies a lot in going, I'm okay with not knowing. Because your brain is trying to figure out like the fear. It's like, it's okay to be afraid. Like that's really typical. That's really normal. I've never done this before. So that would make sense. That's kind of reasonable.

Because I think people that use things like, yeah, just go be fearless. I'm like, again, crap. Nobody's fearless ever. Maybe the goal would be to fear a little less, but like you're basically teaching the brain that it's safe to move forward. And you're doing that with like exposure and desensitization of like getting out there. And sometimes people like they go like.

They'll go sign up for the Iron Man or the marathon because they're like, that was always my goal. That's on my bucket list. And they haven't done anything else to like warm up to that. And I don't believe you always have to do that, but like, damn, if you don't want to be puking before the line, like let's do those things so that you know, ⁓ I can handle that and not make it such a shock to the system.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, especially Iron Man. Yeah, especially when Iron Man, like when you jump into a cold water and you're not prepared for it.

That's like short, brief version, but you know, that's what happens.

Yeah, Man's a daunting one, right? Like, again, think we, you know, a lot of Iron Man's on the call here, and ⁓ Iron Man, Iron Women, and I think we can take, you know, reflect back to our very first Iron Man that we tackled, right? And just how that felt, towing, you know, towing the line on the start line, and ⁓ before the gun goes off, it's like, whoa, we got some work ahead of us here. This is gonna be, and and just that uncertainty too, right?

Thank

whether or not, know, how is it, can I actually finish this? Right. Like, and just busting through that mental barrier versus the physical barrier. We all know it's, it's within, it's within us that it is possible to do for, for the majority of us. But, but yeah, just like the mental barrier is just so big.

Mm-hmm.

Well, and people get that way because they think that we need to have done something to know that we can achieve the next thing. But how is any record broken? No one's done it before. Everything that gets done, I have to believe it's possible. And I know that sounds kind of woo woo to a lot of people, but like I have to believe I can do something for me to be able to literally magnetize that success and be able to achieve it faster. And if I'm like, I haven't done that before, so I don't know if I can do it. I don't care if it's a 5K.

If you have never run and you're trying to do your first 5K, that is just as daunting. Like it kills me when people go, I'm not a real runner because I don't do marathons. I'm like, ⁓ huh, okay.

⁓ yeah.

Bet you run.

Now

do you run? I think running to the mailbox makes you a runner.

Yeah, absolutely. If you run, you're runner.

Yeah.

Ashley, did you just mean by magnetize that success?

So we operate in energy frequencies and a lot of this stuff is physics and everybody thinks that it's kind of like what you feel. But in reality, we attract energy. I mean, you guys have probably heard a lot of the attraction and just what you focus on produces different energy. And most of us, unfortunately, are focused on what we're trying to avoid. And we don't even realize it's a problem because it's not negative.

And I'll give you an example like, know, runners love to say, don't go out too fast. It's like, okay, don't go out too fast. You know, don't die. And that's not negative. That's actually great advice. But the problem is you're focusing on what you're trying to avoid. And then we actually increase that probability. And so you create a situation that becomes harder for you because you think you're helping yourself, but your brain holds onto the last word.

So you're sitting there thinking what you're trying not to do and you lose a lot of your power and energy that we can attract success. And I know that that's hard for a lot of people, but like when you were kids and you learned in science that certain things, well, actually everything, like I'm almost gonna use my phone as an example. Like this isn't really solid, nothing solid, right? It's a bunch of atoms, a bunch of moving particles just moving so fast. And we're like,

I don't know if I can buy into that. But the thing is, everything's moving so fast. And so no matter what you really believe or have a hard time buying into, we attract like things. So you don't actually have to buy in to make it work for you. But if I am focused on what I want to happen, and people are afraid of that because they're like, but what if I don't achieve it? I'm like, well, first of all, don't put it on a billboard and don't tweet it out then.

Yeah

They still call it tweeting. don't know whatever the X version is, but

like don't tell other people if you're so worried about it, but then look at where your energy is. You're magnetizing. What if it doesn't happen? You are focused on it not happening. So you don't truly believe in your ability to get it. So if I want to move closer to something, then I'm going to have to focus on what I want to happen. And you do not have to be fake. I don't believe in toxic positivity. So you could simply say something like,

Hold my pace, push my limits, chin up, lean forward. Obviously, it's gonna depend on what the situation is, what the race and all the other things, but like, you wanna think about maybe, you know, quick feet, tall spine, turnover, but not what could go wrong. And most people are doing that and they're doing that out of protection. And so they don't realize that they're repelling what's possible for them. And then they go, well, see, it didn't happen. And I'm like,

That's called your reticular activating system, your RAS for short in the brain. If you think something won't happen, you're literally looking for evidence on why it won't happen. And so then, yeah, you're right, it didn't happen because you were prepared to go, see, I wanted to use the I told you so phrase. Call you in.

Yeah.

I'm totally on board. You know, Paul Prof is my coach and he said when I went to Nice last year, he said something that really helped me go through the pain of last 17 Ks. He said something along the lines like, expect the pain to come. I was waiting for that 25 K mark and then I told myself, MJ, you're a queen of pain. Here we go. Give it. It was so powerful because I'm like,

Hmm.

I can totally handle this. Let's go. I am the queen of pain. You just love it. Give me more. And it's just like, yeah, let's go.

Yeah.

And

people fear that because they're like, but what if I wasn't the queen of pain? I'm like, you're talking to yourself. Like, and you're not saying I love pain, I'm being fake. You're just like beast mode activated. Now I expect it. It's not taking me down. And I'm a little dramatic, but yeah, but when you have something that you say, but if you do not pre-program that stuff, do not expect to pull it out of your ass at mile 20.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

That's

Yeah,

no totally

or mile 140 on an Iron Man. Because you're going

right.

to base everything that you think off of how you feel, which makes sense, right? So I better come up with it. And then people are like, but I don't know exactly how it's going to go. I'm like, you don't even have to use the plan. You're just creating the thought that you might use in a moment that you know is going to test everything that you ever thought possible.

Yeah. Yeah. And you feel pretty crappy at that point.

Thanks.

Mm-hmm.

So when you talk about that reframing, seeing setbacks or pain differently, how can we start to build, reinterpret that discomfort or failure in a way that strengthens our confidence rather than erodes it?

Yes, so people kind of have a hard time with this and I think it's just because reframing kind of gets a bad rap. I think people automatically mean that it has to pretend everything's good. I'm fine, it's fine. And it's not sugar coating struggle. It's simply training your brain to focus on, again, what you want to happen instead of what could go wrong.

And people kind of fight it. think they're so resisted to it because they're like, again, I just don't know. And I'm like, but you believe whatever you repeatedly say and whatever you're talking about, even though you're just venting to your, you know, buddy that you're running with, you got to make sure that you know, whatever you're saying is imprinting. So if I can reframe, reframing is just saying what I want to produce. And that's just

productive thinking. It doesn't have to be positive. It doesn't have to be like, I can handle anything. It's just giving your brain like clear instructions instead of this kind of, I don't know, just like being vague, right? I kind of give young athletes that we work with athletes all over the country virtually or in our office, but I just said this this morning, so it's fresh in my head. I was giving the example of like,

If you have a teacher and she's like, I don't know, she's handing out tests and she says, okay, don't write with a red pen. And you're like, okay, yeah, that's reasonable. You grade in red pen. I don't even know if they still do that to this day. I haven't been in school in so long, but you know, back in the day and you can write in anything else, but you know, don't write in red pen. It's very confusing because you're like, okay, well, can I use this pencil? Is this pencil okay? It's a mechanical pencil. Does that work?

I have this pen. Just don't write in red pen. So the pencil is okay. Just don't write in red pen. It's so confusing. Your brain is the same way. And so like we tend to focus on failure because we're like trying to avoid it or like, you know, a bad race is like, I don't want to repeat that. But then we take all this data and we decide it means something about us. And that's what erodes confidence is because we're like, well, I'm actually not good at this. No, you're collecting

you

you

data, just information. Confidence is not like, I'm never going to blow it again. It's like, well, if I do, what can I learn from that? And just everything goes down to how you interpret it. so reframing is about your focus and not like...

making it where I feel like it has to look a certain way. I just think it's more about how creatively you label things. Like there's gonna be things that suck, but this sucks doesn't mean I can't do it kind of thing.

Is fear of failure one of major things that youth athletes struggle with?

⁓ yeah. Now they won't call it that because that that would not be ⁓ that would be like a weakness for them. their mother that makes the appointment for them will say, my athlete's afraid of failing. But if I ask the athlete that they'll be like, that's not really my thing. So the thing is, it's actually rooted in perfectionism and it's really more of like I don't want to be seen as a beginner.

⁓ huh.

I don't want to be seen in my struggle phase. I don't want to not be as good as my buddy, my friend who, you know, is five inches taller than me and I haven't hit my growth spurt yet. So I'm afraid of failing, but really it's just, you're afraid of not being right where your best friend is. And so yes, there are definitely things that you want to work on so that you don't hold that pattern for the rest of your life because something else that people will ask me is like, what do you just

Mm-hmm.

work with athletes. Yes, I do just work with athletes. But in reality, yeah, I want you to be better at your sport. But I actually kind of want you to be a good human because we're kind of short on those these days. And I want you to learn how to take risk. I want you to learn how to apply for that job because guys, oh my God, y'all would not believe how many people like email me asking for internships for their kids. And I'm like, I feel like

Mm.

they should probably do that at 25 years old. But like you have to teach your kid how to fail and they don't really know how to do that because again, that's a skill set and they're afraid of just looking bad and they're afraid of messing up. And so walking through particular drills that help them get better at taking risks and trying new things, that's gonna help them in school, that's gonna help them with their friendships, that's gonna help them in a career. So.

Mm-hmm.

I always wanna tie those things in because that to me is like a powerful skill that will help you in anything. And yes, well beyond your sport. Cause at some point everybody retires unless you're a runner and you run forever. And that's why it's the greatest sport ever. But you know, I'm biased.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then once you get there, then you struggle to find big enough challenges.

Sure, yeah. mean, and I just think everything is kind of, how you view it and just, you know, it depends on the household that you grew up in and where the pressure is coming from and things like that too.

Yeah, yeah, amazing.

Ashley, if you could give everyday endurance athletes a mindset shift, one mindset shift to start making today one step towards that performance resilience, what would it be?

Such a loaded question. ⁓ One thing.

It is. is.

you

One

answer to solve everybody's problems.

my gosh, world peace, right? Isn't that the like Miss America answer? ⁓ my gosh. Well, I'll say this. think, and I mentioned it a little bit earlier, but like something that's a big mindset shift, there's lots of tools, there's lots of things that I will teach athletes to distract them in a good way so that they're not focused on the pain, they're not focused on what's going wrong or something like that. I think like an,

Yeah.

overarching principle is focusing on your ability and not the feeling because you do know how to do more than you will give yourself credit for. And the other thing I think that is really important is ⁓ practicing compassion and grace. I did mention that earlier, but I am not about being soft. But I think you can give yourself a little bit of just permission.

to do things differently than how everybody else is doing them. I think the majority of us that are definitely high performers and very competitive people that are gonna be the people listening to this, that care about this, we're really just tough on ourselves. so having grace, but still being competitive is a thing and actually scheduling like recovery. Like I think most of my friends and just athletes that I work with are like, well,

It's like recovery is like a punishment. No, it's kind of part of training. You need it. And not looking at certain things as that makes me bad, that makes me weak, or that's an excuse. You've got to figure out your plan and not be so hung up on how other people are doing it. And I understand, we're a society of comparisons.

I just think it's important to like practice detachment and knowing that it, doesn't mean you're carrying less, but you're kind of carrying smarter. The goal is never to be perfect. It's to stay in the game long enough to keep improving and keep wanting to do it. And I just really think that that is strategy because people will ask me, you know, how come I had a great training run on Monday or a great swim on Monday. And then on Tuesday I was total garbage.

you did not lose your ability overnight. You just couldn't access that, like the ability to tap into it because you were distracted and maybe you had an argument, maybe you missed a deadline at work, maybe you got chewed out, maybe you didn't really have enough time to give the full workout that you were supposed to do. But nothing happened to you and people just don't realize that like their thoughts and what they're focused on and what they're thinking really do determine.

how you tap into your physical ability. The ability is there most of the time, but we're so hard on ourselves that we don't realize that that is kind of this equilibrium that determines how much energy we can put into a workout or a race. so recognizing that like we're the engine that runs it all. It's not just all.

you know, the physical workouts and there is a little bit to the ⁓ mental aspect and just acknowledging that and like giving it I think credit. I don't know if I answered your question, but I was a little nugget in there somewhere, I'm sure.

Mm-hmm.

you

I think it was good. I have a selfish question. I could, Ashley, my daughter is a top swimmer in BC. She's 15. ⁓ She's one of the top swimmers for her age. I don't know how she does it, you ⁓ said you had experience with this sport and she stands up there ⁓ they hold them, right? And it's like, and she's got to...

Please.

you

yeah.

she's got to deliver on the, and they only get one chance, right? If they, they false start, they're out, right? So yeah, I just, what what advice would you give for a 15 year old that does that sport to ⁓ help execute?

So give me a little bit more context so I can maybe give you a better answer. Is she nervous? Is she distracted? Is she worried? Because my gosh, I hate lane eight and they put me in lane eight. Is it, my gosh, I'm racing this person and I've never beaten her? Like there's a lot of things that I can tell you, but if you know what maybe her hangup is when I get behind the blocks, I'll give you a better

think she just wants to deliver to her potential because she often comes in with the top ⁓ ranking time and then there's all this anticipation to deliver the top time, right? Because there's seed time, so she's placed in lane four, lane five, so she's right in the middle. Now she's got to execute and she's got to do what she knows she can do.

do ⁓ it is another thing. it's just in that moment, right? And they hold them. there's a random marks, go! And it's just a total random thing there. So yeah.

So I think it's assigning so much meaning to like, swimmers will tell me this all the time, like, the starter was terrible. He held us too long. And I'm like, yeah, it's some guy that volunteered. He's going to be terrible. Let's not really be shocked by that. And they're like, but it's not fair. I'm like, I get you. I was at the meet. It wasn't fair. But are we giving all of our power away to the starter? Are you literally diving in like, screw it? Why am I even racing? And I think

Hmm.

learning how to block out things that we know are going to be triggers for us is the key at the beginning and just kind of knowing like, and this is going to sound weird, but like predetermining your excuses. So I know at certain races, nobody likes to race like in rain, or ⁓ I know that, you know, certain courses are more technical and harder. Well, I know at

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

certain pools, I'm annoyed by the officials, right? I think you kind of need to have a set number of excuses that you allow so that you're like, I'm at my max. And what that really means is like, and when I say excuses, it might be set number of distractions. It might be set number of things that I let take my attention away, set number of complaints I make. You can have different categories, but when I have a number, I expect them.

I've kind of rehearsed them. I know exactly what I'm going to do. have a plan and whether I use the plan or not doesn't really matter. It's the fact that you have a plan because the brain really struggles with the unknown. And so I know that he's going to hold us longer, but every single person on this block around me in this heat is going to be bothered by it because every swimmer hates that. But you know what? True emotional composure is going, nope.

that's not getting me. And it doesn't mean that I feel in control because of course she does not feel in control in that moment because she's sitting there going, ⁓ you know, I hate this, but the brain just needs to perceive control. doesn't have to feel in control. So knowing like, okay, if I have someone that holds us too long, here's where I'm going to direct my attention. Here's what I'm going to focus on. And, ⁓ one of the things that I will use like us swimming and running is something called ilism.

which is just the scientific name for talking to yourself in third person. And so a lot of people are like, my gosh, that's so douchey. And I'm like, okay, but hold on. First of all, you don't have to say it out loud, but it's something like, okay, Ash, hold steady. Ash, pay attention. Ash, you're ready. Ash, dig deep if it's like, you know, the last couple of miles. But the reason this works is we will give up on ourselves and we will just be like, ⁓ this is so unfair or I don't like this situation.

you

But we don't like to let other people down. We don't like to disappoint people. And that's a whole other conversation. But if we know that we don't like letting others down, your brain interprets you talking to yourself in third person, like, okay, Ash, focus. Ash, this doesn't matter or whatever it is you're gonna say to yourself. It interprets it as a coach giving you information. So then you're like, but I don't wanna let them down. And it just creates enough emotional distance that you can push harder. You can make better decisions. You can direct.

your attention. And so that's what we're going for. We're trying to regulate the emotion from like spiking at the last minute before I start. My heart rate's all jacked up and now I've got to dive in and I already think I need a breath and I didn't take my breakout stroke yet. And then the other thing that I'll just layer with that is you've got to take out what you think you should do. Like we say things like I should go this time. I'm in lane four. I'm seated first. I should win.

⁓ You know, I should be farther along by now. I should be able to hold this pace or you know, we've all said some kind of comment like that and language is always a choice. ⁓ We do it if you're going out for a training run. I have to go run like it's a freaking punishment. No. So recognize like the shoulds and the have to use because that ultimately puts a ton of pressure on you right before you start and that just activates tension in the body and you typically carry it.

right up around your shoulders and your neck. And then that affects your spine. And obviously that affects your stride if you're running or your stroke. And what happens in swimming is it will really actually shorten their stroke. So I say something like, I have to hold this time. I have to beat her or something like that. Now, my stroke is shortened. I'm actually flatter and it's only about two to three inches, but in your swimming, you want to extend your shoulder line. And so you want to roll to get more efficient strokes.

to then ultimately take less strokes per 25. And for us to be efficient, I have to think in terms of choice. So if I say, I have to get this or, you know, this shouldn't bother me, because it could be something that shouldn't or should, it doesn't really matter, but the brain panics. And so if you just change it to, I want to do well, I want to beat her, I want to go a good time, I want to hold this pace, instead of I,

have to or I should, your brain focuses in on being in control. Because again, it goes back to perceived control. You don't have to feel in control. And when you're thinking about choice, y'all, we don't like to be told what to do. That's why they hate the starter. Because they're like, he's ruining my race. But if it's like my choice, how I respond, we gain a little bit of leverage, even though it's like, how could that be enough? Yeah, we are that fragile and

Yes, language really does matter and affect us in our movements and our reaction time that much. So I want to is like, ⁓ it's a choice. I get to now here's the key. This is a little bit of a caveat. You cannot say, I'm never gonna say I wanna clean my closet. I would be a weirdo. So I'm not gonna go, I wanna clean my closet. I would say, have to clean my closet or something like that.

Hmm.

and

I should have all this cleaned up. I've got company coming over. Because then it takes longer. Again, it feels like a chore. I create tension in my body. So if I'm getting ready to start for a race, I want to do well. But if it's not true, like I want to go for a run, but you're like, I'm gonna go for a run. Put an incentive on the end that makes it true for you. I want to clean my closet because I don't want to look at this crap. I want my closet clean so my husband doesn't.

Ask me one more time, why have you bought so many clothes? don't know, that may be something in my household. I want the dishes done so I can sit my butt on the couch and watch the Astros. You're not gonna say I wanna do the dishes, right? So you might have to play with the creativity and the language, but that gives your brain a choice and then it's not so much of the pressure of what she feels like she has to do. It's choice, even though that's an itty bitty simple shift, that's just one thing.

You

Yeah, well, that's good. Yeah, the other important one you mentioned in there earlier on was the importance of rehearsal and, back to the starting block. They rehearsed that start block a lot. And I will say also, this is what, ⁓ if we can go back to Athletica, the training platform that the podcast supports, this is what we try to do within the plans, all of the different plans that are within Athletica. There are key sets that happen usually on the weekends.

But these are pieces of the event and the race. And it's really the opportune time where you are rehearsing what it is that you are going to be doing. And Marjaana kind of mentioned as well, this is where the pain's coming at 25K of the race. It's the same sort of thing, right? The pieces of the event are within there. It's your time to rehearse and prepare, not just physically, but mentally as well.

which is what we've been talking about. So Ashley, it's just been fantastic. ⁓ And you know where it's, yeah, just so much gold nuggets that you've sprinkled throughout the whole podcast. So incredible.

Thank you guys. ⁓ It's hard to always nail a question in one succinct response because when it's the thing that you do, you're like, but you need this and also this and also this. And then you go back and you listen to the replay and you go, ⁓ I should have said this. Wait, nope, let's actually use my own stuff and go, was pleased with how it came out. I said whatever needed to be released into the universe and someone will get something from whatever I said and hasn't heard before.

Of course.

.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

Hahaha.

You did.

Exactly. Exactly.

Absolutely.

Ashley, where can people reach you or follow you or pay attention to your work?

Absolutely, just MaximizeTheMind.com and follow us on Instagram. We post tips and strategies and tools on Instagram every day and that's just MaximizeTheMindOfficial because someone had it years ago and they never post on it but we are MaximizeTheMindOfficial account on Instagram. But yeah, check out, we've got free resources. We have a blog with a ton of stuff just to kind of read through and I just really believe in.

Ha ha ha.

sharing education. just think enough people just don't really know the research and what options are out there. And that we have one-on-one sessions, have camps, have on-demand courses. And if you have a question specifically, email me directly, Ashley at MaximizeTheMind.com. I'll help you out.

Thanks for listening today to the Athletes Compass podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science-based training platform, Athletica, and join the conversation on the Athletica Forum. For Ashley Eckermann, Marjaana Rakai, and Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Warlowski, and this has been the Athletes Compass podcast. Thank you so much for listening.