Winter Training Essentials: Gear, Goals, and Mindset

So should we talk about what Cindy, you know, I'm sure Cindy's a veteran in terms of equipment, but what kind of things should she be thinking about when she goes outside for her

there's a Norwegian saying, there's no bad weather, just bad gear.

Correct. So,

choose your gear wisely every time. And you really got to think about it before you go out,

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast, where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. In the Northern hemisphere, it's winter, dark and cold outside. I think it's raining in Revelstoke or snowing in Revelstoke right now, and it's going to snow in Wisconsin on Thursday. But what's the best way to build fitness and health during the winter with the emergence of online platforms like MyWoosh and Zwift?

I think it's raining in Revelstoke or snowing in Revelstoke right now.

Should I spend all of my training time inside in my unheated garage or should I get outside and ride my bike in the cold? Cindy Maloney, who has got a marathon PR and qualified for Boston, she appeared on episode 36. She wrote in this question for us. If following a marathon training plan throughout the winter months, and again, this is the Boston marathon training plan.

So,

How should I handle the running volume knowing that there could be a lot of snow and ice which could prevent me from executing this specific run session such as VO2 max and threshold? Is it best to complete those on a treadmill? How much cross-country skiing can be substituted for running volume and which workouts in particular might work best for these? Also, what would be a better substitute for running skate or classic skiing? It doesn't matter.

Also, what would be a better substitute for running skate or classic skiing? doesn't matter. So, Paul lives in British Columbia, Canada. live in Wisconsin. Marjaana grew up in Finland. So we all have lot of experience in the winter. So we're going to talk about Cindy's question and talk about training in the cold and better.

Paul lives in British Columbia, Canada. I live in Wisconsin. Marjaana grew up in Finland. So we all have a lot of experience dealing with winter. So we're going to talk about Cindy's question and talk about training in the cold and in the winter and try to figure out well, what is going to work? So let's start with Cindy's question. There's a lot of layers there. So let's talk about the running volume first.

Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a great question. It's definitely on the mindset of so many of us in the Northern Hemisphere. What do we do now with knowing that we might have like an early season, you know, run event kind of, you know, in the near future? And we know that training volume is an important factor. Cindy learned that herself. And yeah, it's a...

So what do you do?

What do you do? And I guess the simple answer is you do what you can do. And that might not be the same running volume that you used to do. So fine, but what could we do sort of instead? We know there's other physiological systems in the body that are important. And I would also...

guess the simple answer is do what you can. And that might not be the same running or running that we used to do. So, fine. But what can we do instead? We know there's other physiological systems in the body that are important.

So I highly recommend this from my last podcast, the Training Science Podcast, with Brad Kulk, in this incredible book called The Norwegian Method. And we know the success of the Norwegians, right? They come from the same sort of region that Marjaana is from as well, And there's a lot of good benefits to cross-training. So all that cross-training, whether that's cross-country skiing, skiing for class,

highly recommend you listen to my last podcast on the training science podcast with Brad Culp, who did this incredible book called the Norwegian method. And we know the success of the Norwegians, right? That come from that, you know, that same sort of region that Marjaana is, is from as well, right? And there's a lot of good benefits to all the cross training. So all of that cross training that we can do, whether that's cross country skiing, skate or classic, whether that's indoor cycling, whether that's

a little bit of treadmill running from time to time. It's all useful. Even the swimming actually as well. I spoke to Brad on about the amount of swimming that the Norwegians do. Don't underestimate the power of that for aerobic training, especially in your case, Cindy, where you're a triathlete, that swimming session still helps. That's where you can actually add a lot of intensity.

That's what the Norwegian method kind of has discovered is that they do a lot of their intensity in the pool and it doesn't impact as much, I guess, as much as like the lower leg kind of intensity does running and cycling. So it's not a definitive answer there for you, but you generally got to go with the flow a little bit. So if there's an opportunity, all of a sudden there's a melt.

you

not an definitive answer there for you, generally you've got to go low a bit. So if there's an opportunity, all of a sudden there's a balance and things aren't too bad.

and things aren't too bad, go out and get your running there. But when there's heavy snow and ice on the ground, really be wise about it, about going out. Wear the right equipment. We'll talk about equipment later on in this, right? But I was just in the sauna. Sauna's great too, actually don't forget. We've got access to sauna in Revelstoke, Cindy. That's a great benefit we've spoken many times.

the sauna. The sauna is great too, actually don't forget you've got access to sauna in Revelstoke. That's a great benefit, we've spoken many times there. The guy in the sauna was really just about to fall on the black ice. It's gone to minus two degrees. And the black ice creeped out, and whoop, and then that really

The guy in the sauna with me had just had a fall on the black ice and it's like, you know, it's gone to minus two here in Revy and the black ice creeped up and whoop and that really hurts.

I actually have another athlete who is in the same boat with you. She's going to run a Boston marathon in April, but she also skis during the winter. She'll do American perky banners. So we had a discussion about how much running she will be doing throughout the winter and

Typically what we have done previously is she has kept one running session, if it's safe, per week and then rest she skis because she likes skiing and it's winter. not? And I do think that having a break from running is beneficial and healthy. and I, I've noticed myself as I'm getting older that like I'm

craving a break from the pounding of running. I grew up, you know, almost not running for six months because winter just lasts so long in North Finland. But for people who take the break from running, you need to be really mindful again when you start running again in March or April or whenever you start running again, because that's a high risk of injuries when you go from skiing

Thank

back to running. think about, should you do that one session on the treadmill or outside every week, just to keep that pounding your neuromuscular system in check ready for increasing the running load again in March or April or whenever you start running again. but I mean, cross country skiing is such an amazing workout and you can

you can see like what kind of terrain you have, what kind of running sessions you replace with skiing. So if you live in a hilly area, I assume I haven't cross country skied in Revelstoke yet. So I don't know, but I assume there's quite a bit of hills. you could

Yet.

Replace some of your interval sessions and do them skiing if your technique is good. If you want to replace some of the aerobic sessions, I would definitely find something that is either undulating or pretty flat terrain so that you don't get your heart rate up on those big hills.

Yeah. Yeah. I want to, I want to springboard off something you said, with respect to just the advantage of taking that break from, from running and, and all of, you know, and, and even a bit, a bit of cycling too. And then just the benefit of that. I'm reflecting on, you know, one of the best triathletes in the world. used to coach Andy Buescher, athletic ambassador, and he would, he would go away for a month and cross country ski.

And just you'd go on a cross-country ski, you know, camp ultimately with his family. And he would just, he would get so much out of, you know, skate and classic, just kind of mixing them up. And, but you know, you can really, yeah, you can, you can get really good volume that's still sort of specific to, to the movement pattern that's going to benefit you.

Mm-hmm.

Jan van Berkel as well was another big world beater. These are guys that are coming top 10 in Kona, right? And they're doing a month or two in the cross country skiing. So the first glance kind of is that anxiety around the fact that I'm missing out on that volume, but you're getting other benefits. And in the mental break, in the...

actually the greater volume of total time that you can actually do without the same neuromuscular load that Marjaana mentioned. And then I, but I think there's also a really probably even a beneficial go with the flow kind of attitude, right? Like depending on the snow conditions is going to dictate what you decide to do on the day. The variation there is going to, you know, allow you to make a decision around what's the better day to do in terms of classic versus skate. Just go with that.

And then, and also same with all of a sudden there's a melt and the roads are safe. Well then, you know, might do a run on that day. So yeah, to me, it's a real, in the winter time, it's a go with the flow kind of pattern, but I think there's a mental benefit and a physiological benefit of doing that for Northern Hemisphere based athletes like you, Cindy.

Yeah, totally. And also think like you're using more of your muscle mass, so your heart rate is higher. So like if you take a 60 minute workout compared to cycling, which is mostly lower body, then you're or running, which is usually a little bit more taxing. And then you have

cross-country skiing, where using your arms, upper body, core, every single fiber of your body, it's so much bang for buck

Should we be looking at endurance workouts in terms of, I don't want to say one-to-one, but similar loads with cross-country skiing versus running? So if Cindy's concerned about getting a two-hour run in for our hour and a half run in, mean, should we be talking an hour and a half ski, two hours of skiing? Is there a ratio that we need to think about or is anything good?

would say it.

Well, would just say like common sense to me is knowing there is less neuromuscular load than an equivalent prescribed run session, it opens the door or lets the leash out a little bit more to do probably some more there if time permits. So I would just kind of say, yeah, like.

So yes, I guess to the question, Paul, that you can, you know, there's almost like a 1.25 factor, I 1.5 factor that you could put on that. But I'm, you know, I'm guessing, and it would probably be more as you, more later as you develop the resiliency in the cross-country skiing. Again, don't forget just now in here in November where the cross-country skiing is just kind of opening.

there's still gonna be a learning and neuromuscular strain just in the early days until we've remembered those neuromuscular patterns and all that sort of stuff, right? But then midway through the season, all of that is locked in and it's not as taxing as say the equivalent running.

yeah.

I know whenever I start skate skiing again, you know, when we first get snow, just leave my poles on the side and just practice the glide and just practice and go, go slow. it takes time to get your, your body used to what it hasn't been doing for a while. what about intensity?

you know, Cindy asked about that, about, know, should we, should she do the, her

VO2 max and threshold sessions on the treadmill. Is there something to be said for doing that cross country skiing or someplace else on a rowing machine for example? Does it matter?

Yeah, well, mean, what's the purpose of doing the intensity, right? Usually. We're usually looking more to the central stuff. So there's a lot of opportunity with all these things that we've sort of talked about here, all these other exercise modes to achieve the high intensity, the cardiovascular adaptations. When I say central, I mean, like the ability of that heart to pump its blood maximally. So the first one, if we look to the Norwegian method,

they really know that they can leverage swimming and they can do high intensity swimming and they don't suffer too much. They can back those up without too much strain. then we've, Marjaana has mentioned the advantage of the skiing in the arm, know, recruitment, arm muscle recruitment. And that really pushes the cardiovascular central component to really load that.

that the heart up and maximize the adaptation. So, both classic and skate with polling at the same time, you're getting more intensity there and benefit. And then you've got your, know, Marjaana's Zwift workout, where you've got your HIIT sessions on the bike as well. So there's just no shortage of opportunities to get your intensity. I would be cautious of getting that on the treadmill.

because in my experience, some of my athletes have gotten injured that way for whatever reason, but maybe because specific loading to running is a little bit different. And so I just, yeah, if you are doing intensity on the treadmill, I would suggest using some incline to get that intensity. I would be careful about too much treadmill intensity on a flat, like just.

In my experience, some of my athletes have got the sort of, they've got the easier outlet for whatever reason, but maybe because specific loading to running is a little bit different. And so I just can't, if you are doing intensity on the treadmill, I would suggest using some of the...

maxing out your stride length and stride rate at high intensity, especially because you might not be as kind of conditioned. I would wait a little bit to get that when the snow starts melting a little bit more late February, early March, start slowly getting a little bit more of that running specific movement back going.

and make sure you've got a good sort of base first of specific running before you start adding any

for the base first, specific running, before you start off with

I was going to say the same, like you could do intensity, other modes, like keep showing up on those Wednesday sessions, heat sessions, we'll do VO2 max on Wednesdays on bike. And then closer to your marathon, you can get into more specific running.

Yeah

intensity, but what was I going to say was sometimes it is really hard to go really fast on skis depending on your technique. But if you have a hill and you're comfortable going really hard, you're going to get like good training effect of going depending on your technique.

you

yeah. Well, irrespective of your technique, it's going to be hard. Like I've got terrible technique. It's like, I, my heart is like coming out of my, coming out of my mouth. Sometimes when I'm doing my first kind of cross country skis, skiing days. And again, you can imagine Revelstoke, right? So hilly when in some of these areas, it's just so it's crazy. But

It's

You

Yes.

But you could do your threshold sessions on skis too. If you feel like VO2 max sessions are just like there's too much to coordinate, you could do threshold, you know, four or five minute efforts on skis.

Hmm. I just don't think intensity is an issue in any of the stuff you're sort of doing. It's just not specifically doing running intensity. And you're just going to have to let that be. you know, the cardinal rule of everything that we do is don't get injured, right? And as long as you're doing all this sort of stuff and not getting injured, you're going to be in a good state to progressively amp that up, you know, for the marathon.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

that will be happening in Boston in April. Ooh, go Cindy, come on girl.

Woo!

April 25th. Yeah.

you know, I'm sure Cindy's a veteran in terms of equipment, but what kind of things should she be thinking about when she goes outside for her training? You know, what kind of clothing, equipment, et cetera?

yeah.

Before we get there, I just got a little, I got a riff and I mentioned that Mark CEO was in the pool the other day and with his triathlon squad and he was telling them about Athletica and they're like, yeah, we've heard about Athletica. We follow Cindy, we follow Cindy. There was two girls there that follow Cindy. So Cindy, you're famous.

Wow. Go Cindy.

Cindy!

Gear and apparel. Yeah. I was thinking about this when I was doing just, you know, the snow's caning down right now as we speak. just yesterday I did my one of my last, I guess, rides until the snow melts again. And I was definitely thinking about the whole layering process.

And I'll just kind of go through what I, from a riding standpoint, you know, I've got my basic kit on as an under layer, but then I've got like a puffy jacket on. And then my vest has these really big pockets for riding. And then I've also got like another wind breaking layer. But the concept that you're mentioning.

Mmm.

here, we're mentioning here Paul, is layering is so key. And then when I get to that, turnaround point is about half an hour. It's so interesting because I was like originally, I was going out and I'm like, it's so cold today. There's no way I'm going to be peeling layers off. But sure enough, after 30 minutes, I had to stop, take off my puffy, put it in my pocket and then kind of put some other layers on. you remember that we are not that efficient.

beings in terms of our metabolic use of the, of when we're breaking down fuels, 80 % of that goes to heat. So I proved that to myself yesterday and I got too hot and I had to take off my puffy layer and put that in my pocket. yeah, so layering is so key and have a place to put the heavy layer that, because inevitably if you want a longer endurance kind of, you know, workout,

you're gonna have to have a place for that heavier sort of layer. So I'll just start there with my first kind of tip and point there, Paul.

Yeah.

I usually, well, cycling is a little different because you're going so fast. Like if you're thinking of skiing specifically or cross country skiing, I like to think you should have enough layers so that when you start, you feel a little chilly. Same with running. Like you want to feel a little bit chilly because you know, when you're producing so much heat, you will get warm. then you don't want to wear too many.

Mm-hmm.

layers of too much clothes because you just, yeah, it gets pretty uncomfortable pretty fast.

Yeah, unless you've got a really good method of being able to kind of like pocket them. Do know what I mean? Like puffies are kind of good, I find, if you've got the right pocket and then you've got like a place to pack it in in the back somewhere, if it's not going to annoy you. but yeah, and it depends on the temperature too, right? Probably there's probably a different setup from -2º versus -10º versus -20º versus -30º right?

Mm, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, the two, the.

At -30º, you might want to stay home.

I was going to say I'm in the garage riding my bike.

That might be, but I still go up on the hill. I just love getting outside. And I know you want me doing more indoor stuff, MJ, and I'm going to see if I can, but it's like, I really love my outdoor hardcore. I spoke about with Brad actually on the Norwegian method. He really feels that's kind of an important thing. Like Christian, Gustav, don't...

really care too much. And it's like, that's what the situation is. I'm just going to wear the right clothing for it. I'm going to get out amongst it.

So there's a Norwegian saying, there's no bad weather, just bad gear. If I was there, I would be the same way. Just layer up. When it's -30º, you're just covered up, right? You're protecting your...

There you go. Yep.

Yeah, yeah, like, I mean...

totally. you have to be because it's dangerous, right? -30º can kill, for sure. So yeah, it doesn't take too long with exposed skin to get either hyperthermic or frostbite sort of setting in. So you've got to be, yeah, you're right. You've got to have the right equipment.

think it's important to have, you know, two pieces of gear that I thought, you know, having for, for cycling and cross country skiing, having a head covering some kind of cap, but again, nothing too heavy because you're going to sweat through it. then that sweat is going to freeze and then it's going to be a, you you're going to have a problem. But I also really like pants and, some kind of Jersey or jacket that has a wind.

cover a wind protection in the chest and in the pants just to keep, know, the skate skiing or riding to keep it, you know, trying to get a little bit, break some of the wind and make it a little bit more comfortable.

Or just go inside like you like to, Marjaana.

I'm stuck inside, winter time here is more my summer, we're talking Texas temperature now it's like 11 degrees in the morning and I get to wear a sweater for 15 minutes and then it gets too hot

Yeah

Yes.

Marjaana missing winter, but what do we do for mental strategies? You know, when it's cold outside, when we are facing the trainer indoors and it's just not, you know, it's not as pleasant as, you know, riding or running when it's nice outside. What are some tips that you guys have for staying motivated for winter training?

We embrace the change. We appreciate that we have seasons because life is all about seasons. Right? I'm, I'm speaking from, from my heart now, embrace the seasons that you have, because some people are stuck in the eternal summer.

Yeah.

Ooh, there we go.

Yep, for sure. Yeah, yeah, consider, you know, group rides like you conduct on Athletica as well, right? Like that's pretty good for mental health because you get the communication, you can suffer with company and share that suffering. And then yeah, there's also all those benefits there along with the exercise.

and share that software.

have to say shout out to my crew on Wednesdays. I did ultra run on Saturday and I wanted to quit after 10k because dummy, I went out too hard but they totally saved me from quitting. So shout out to my crew, you guys are so amazing. So find your team, join my team, join our team.

That helps so much to have social aspect during the winter when you can't go on a ride with your coffee ride buddies.

I also think it's really helpful to keep in mind both short-term goals, but also for Cindy, knowing that Boston is coming up. So she's got a specific long-term goal. There's a reason that she's doing all of this. There's a reason she's putting herself through these challenges of the wintertime.

Absolutely.

And yeah, and again, I think that's one of the positive things we're trying to do with Athletica is to try to help people with their sense of purpose and show them a good path forward.

after my big year this year, I've struggled to like find what's next. Like I did the world championships, what's next. And I pushed it so hard. Like I was, I went all in for my, my worlds. then what, what then? Like you just kind of like drop it. Like you're just kind of floating, drifting, and I don't have any goals yet. So,

It's really hard mentally, but I think I found a new goal that is exciting to me. And it's not a race, but it's a goal. want to run sub 20, 5k. So that's my new goal.

Ooh.

I love it. I love it. And you put it right out there. That's another really important principle. when you actually make a claim like that, it forces the commitment. I actually remember doing that with Martin. He hated it. But I put it out there. I think it was on Twitter. I put it out there that we were going to write this book. And Martin and I had kind of, we had said that to ourselves.

So you're go from an alt? Yeah.

Yeah.

But he was like, why are you doing that? But it was like, it committed it. Like I was all of a sudden, when you state this is what I'm doing, you really kind of commit. Sorry, Cindy, we've already done this for you with Boston.

Hehehehe

You're welcome Cindy

Yeah.

I think we need to find a good race that you can actually do in it. Yeah, that's fully legit, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

do we need to think about nutrition any differently in the winter time? Do we need to think about drinking more, drinking less, eating more?

Yeah.

as with everything, it depends, right? Think about, in general, we are gonna be probably at a cooler core temperature. So in general, we should be probably sweating a little bit less and you can probably get away with a little bit less fluids on board. That being said, there's a greater

loss of water from the respiratory system. There's almost like you're, I like to think the lungs are almost kind of exposed a little bit more to this evaporation process. And you can actually see that too when you're out in the cold. So you are still losing fluid, just kind of be mindful. The principles are still the same, drink to thirst, have water, have fluid available. And

The other thing that can happen too, if you are not layering and removing layers appropriately, you can actually over, you can get quite hot and there can be a lot of sweat that's kind of going on. It's just getting lost in your clothing and whatnot. So you can still be sweating quite a bit. I think it's just, the principles are still the same as in the summer, but just like have fluid available, drink to thirst.

So I think it's just the principles are still the same.

and just kind of be mindful of it. and feeling is again the same. It's just, you know, have fuel available and, you know, prevent any issues with a drop in blood glucose or, you know, or hunger that's gonna diminish your feeling of energy to allow you to perform your exercise, you know.

As we had Mickey on the podcast, remember emphasizing protein in the post exercise period. As she mentioned, it's probably the key thing.

Okay, I'll let you guys in on a Norwegian fueling secret for cross-country skiing. It's orange. Bring an orange in your pocket.

and a bar of chocolate.

Hmm.

yeah.

Nice.

add that orange in there because it's nice and cold. It's like drinking juice. It's like the best orange you can have. You're a little thirsty when you have that break and you eat that orange. You peel it like you smell the orange. Like the peeling is the best part because anticipation. No, but seriously, like you're not in a hurry anywhere. You're having your break. You sit down, you're peeling your orange. You can smell it.

Orange, eh? Yeah?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

It's the best orange you can ever have. I promise.

Yeah, for sure. And I will say for five hour backcountry ski days, I've got my Nalgene, which is like one liter Nalgene. So I've got like quite a bit of water there. And then in my coffee thermos is probably half a liter. So it's like, I'm still taking on that five hour journey, a liter and a half of fluid to kind of me happy. And I'm pretty much just about done all of that by the end of the day. So I am going through fair bit of fluid.

You're still drinking a lot in long days in the cold.

I want to talk about like when you start skiing, be mindful of your training load because you're not used to skiing. So you might feel more fatigued in the beginning of the season.

Mmm. Good.

I think we definitely touched on it, but be mindful of the winter related health risks, Paul. Frostbite and hypothermia, they're real issues and kind of like what Marjaana said, there's no – what did you say about the Norwegian saying?

Mm.

There's no bad weather, just bad gear.

Correct. So, choose your gear wisely every time. And you really got to think about it before you go out, right? Like, mean, it's quite a, it's actually quite a organizational ordeal that we have with our friends when we're going for one of these days. It's like, we're checking, we're checking the weather. We see what it's going to be like. We look at like, you know, the projections for the avalanche conditions to the weather that's kind of coming in on that day. And then we actually double check the clothing that we

Mm-hmm.

have. So we actually go through and check the other person's clothing. Like that's how serious it is. of like, so we make sure that we've got like the something might be on a minus 20 plus or minus 20 or less day. It would be, do you have a double, double puffy kind of thing, right? Do you have two pairs of gloves? All the, you know, do you have extra, extra tukes, all these sorts of things in these areas that we know are going to be susceptible to.

Hmm.

to being cold and yeah, because you want to avoid frostbite and hypothermia, you must, or you're going to be in real big trouble. You then become a liability to others that are out there with you. So it's such an important topic of your day is the preparation of the gear.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, there's also another Norwegian saying that it's never a shame to turn back.

So here are my takeaways from this conversation. Number one, if you can, winter is best taken head on. Get outside when you can. Do your training, cross country skiing, riding a fat bike, going out for a run. Number two, while specificity is best, it is good.

Sometimes you've got to be adaptable and aerobic training is going to be beneficial. Skiing is a replacement for running is going to be okay. You're going to be fine. And number three, being indoors, getting outside for winter when it's cold, that can be a challenge mentally and emotionally. And so if you focus on your spring and summer goals, having that long-term goal,

can give your workout a bigger meaning and having a bigger purpose. And that can really help you through the challenging parts.

That is all for this week. Join us next week on the Athletes Compass podcast. Ask your training questions in the comments or on our social media. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate it if you would take a moment to give us a follow and a five star review. It would be awesome if you could share this episode with one, just one person, more if you wanted to, but one would be awesome.

That is all for this one.

Join us next week on the Athletes Compass podcast. Ask your training questions in the comments or on our social media. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate it if you would take the moment to give us a follow and a five star review. It would be awesome if you shared this episode with one, just one person, or more if you wanted to, but one would be impossible. For more information, or to schedule a consultation with Paul, Marjaana, or myself, check the links.

For more information or to schedule a consultation with Paul, Marjaana or myself, check the links in the show notes for Marjaana Rakai and Dr. Paul Larson. am Paul Wurlowski and this has been the Athletes Compass podcast. Thank you so much for listening.